Help decide next project for Syren Ship Model Company

[Chuck]

Bob

 

Not at all.  You must have missed my original post.  But to recap, Winnie is currently under construction.  The plans are basically done except for tweaks as I build her.  So while getting my hands dirty on Winnie,  I like to also start drafting and designing my next project.  I get some computer time in while not in the workshop building the Winnie.   These three projects are on my to-do list and I am trying to establish the most commercially interesting one based on our members feedback...or possibly disqualify one if there was no interest.  There seems to be interest in all three which is great.  And I will start with teh cross section.

 

Chuck

[alde]

Chuck, all the best to you and your family. As always it's family first and formost.

[rafine]

Chuck:

 

I was unclear from your original post whether you were intending to do Winnie as a kit or whether you were building it for yourself and going to the new choices for your next kit(s). I've looked forward to doing Winnie for a long time.

 

Bob

[Chuck]

Winnie is underway....I am however having second thoughts about a book and am contemplating doing the same for Winnie that I have done with Cheerful.  Just posting the manual/monograph as a free download while selling the starter kit and mini-kits for the model.   Seems like the best way to move forward.  Easier for all involved. Unfortunately it is a little more complicated than that.  But I have time to work out those details.  But right now I only have to worry about having fun building her. 

[Thistle17]

Rusty has shown the "Winne" to our group. It is a beauty and much desired by a number of us. The starter kit, as Cheerful, with accessories makes it a no brainer for me. I am hooked on this method of building a quality model within a reasonable time frame. It is a most desirable way to go for many of us. I will wait patiently.

Joe

[Mike Y]

The Boeier looks very charming, I will definitely sign up for one!

But why POB, not POF? All other small boats designed by Chuck are in frames, and this one is suddenly POB? Any chance for the POF version?

[amateur]

Bit of a hijack of thi sthread, but in a answer to a question to a POF-version of the BOeier.

A boeier of that age had a builing style related to the Dutch 'bottom first' method. There is no complete set of frames that was erected before starting the hull. Framing was done along the route, fitting some planks to the frames, fitting the next frames to the planks. Therefore, not all the frames can be attached to the keel from the start. A POF-build sequence will be kind of fictitious.

And: of all dutch bows, the boeier one is notorious for its difficult curves (the planks curves strongly upward, and slightly inward to the stern. Even more experiences builders cry for fillers in bow and stern. Easier to do with POB, especially while this boeier is clinked build, and not carvel.

 

To illustrate: even at the turn of the twentieth century, some builders of the smaller boeiers used this 'frameless' building style.

 

And to illustrate the interesting curves, I downloaded a drawing from Maritiemdigitaal (the digital inventory of the Dutch maritime musea) showing a drawing of a Amsterdam build Boeier (around 1850). Clinked build, looking very much (but not completely) like the boeier Chuck showed (this one has no wales, and a much stronger sheer (which I personaly like very much  in this drawing)

 

You can see the relatively flat build bottom on which the frames where erected. You can also see the Dutch style of framing the bow using heavy timer attached to the stern, and not the keel, and you can see the inward/upward curve of the planking at the bow.

The drawing also shows part of the interior. I guess the model of the 'emperors Boeier' shows an even more lavishly decorated interior.

 

(unfortunatedly: there is no easy way to buy copies via this maritiemdigitaal.nl-site....., and the pic below is the highest resolution you can download )

 

Jan

 

And I don't know how this one relates to the model Chuck showed: an undated drawing of a Boeier from the Dutch Naval archive (indicating that the ship must have been build at the Rijkswerf, like the original of the model). Drawing is available (for non-commercial uses) at high resolution here: http://proxy.handle.net/10648/01dc8ced-b82f-885d-38eb-b86fff990f2e

 

 

 

Jan

Edited January 19, 2018 by amateur

[Wintergreen]

I will lay my vote for the Chewbacca.. sorry the Chebacco. 

Mostly because, as some stated, there are numerous kits of those with cannons.

Then I'm not overly fond of the Dutch lines, they don't appeal to me (Note, very personal opinon!)

Therefore the other work boat. Nice lines, fair amount of detail, manageable size.

 

But that's only my to cents.

[Mike Y]

Jan, thanks, now it is much clearer. Interesting background information!

Edited January 21, 2018 by Mike Y

[Chuck]

In addition, because the hull shape adds a great deal "difficulty level" for the average builder to plank and build.  I want to keep this project as an intermediate level build.

 

I already have the basic concept laid out in my mind....I just have to put it on my drafting board and start testing a prototype.  BUt it will need to wait until after teh cross section gets done first.

 

I have some new and hopefully interesting ideas I want to try with that one.  Oh and yes I do have all of those drafts and many more from the same period and from Rijkswerf,  I am hoping that I can get the lines taken off the model itself and am working with these guys to get that done as well.

[Chuck]

I just wanted to inform you guys that the cross section drafting has begun.  Plans from David Antscherl are scanned and drafting has begun.  I am very thankful to David Antscherl and Greg Herbert for allowing me to use their plans and expertise for this project.  I felt compelled to post this today because of a topic I read on another forum.  I think it would be very important to point out the stark differences in how some kit companies approach projects like this.

 

When completed this will be a project that is 98% duplicated from David's plans and research.  Having said this, I will be drawing up a completely new set of plans that will NOT be a Xeroxed copy of David's work.  I will indeed need to make minor adjustments to facilitate the kit-making process as well as add some new features to make building the cross section easier.  The plan sheets will be laid out very differently. But make no mistake about it....this is a duplication of David's plans and work.  Even though I have digitized David's plans and have begun duplicating them (tracing) with minor differences....even major ones.  This is a duplication and a full-on use of his work.  The difference being, I will.... and have acknowledged David's role and Greg's and will be giving them full credits and acknowledgement throughout the project.  In addition,  there will be financial compensation for all of the wonderful work that they did which will save me a huge amount of time and allow me to create something worthwhile. This is how such a partnership should work.  Its about recognition and compensation. To someone uninformed they might be under the mistaken impression that this was not a duplication of the Admiralty Models Pegasus plans and research, at least based on what my finished plans might eventually look like.

 

This is in stark contrast with a recent kit currently on the market for an Ancre French frigate.  I was startled to read today a forum topic elsewhere trying to rationalize a theft which is very disingenuous to say the least.  Anyone well informed with a minor amount of expertise can compare the plans by Ancre and the pirating kit company to see that they are in fact a duplication.  Finding minor differences is NOT an indication that the kit is not a duplication.  The comparison for anyone who wants to be truthful about it is very very clear.  In addition,  there is zero acknowledgement and zero compensation for the work Ancre had done and for its clear and apparent copying.  You will not see a 100% photo copy of the plans and it doesnt need to be in order to be honestly and rightfully acknowledged as a pirated duplication.  But if you are of the ilk that really.... really wants to believe that, and are looking for some sort of rationalization,  then that is what you will determine.  It is quite a disturbing, uninformed and very childlike interpretation.   

 

Once again, Thank You to David and Greg for allowing me to bring such a project to market so that other will have an opportunity to build this cross section.  I can sleep soundly each night knowing that this is the correct way to enter into such a projects development.  You guys are the best!!!

[Rustyj]

It's great to see the honesty and integrity people like you, Greg and David have and the continued

excellence you all provide to this hobby we love so much!

 

Thank you.

[Nirvana]

That cross-section is starting itching for me..........

[Thistle17]

As a past president's wife said..."When they go low we go HIGH!" Always been one of my life's codes. It is obvious it is yours.

Joe

[dvm27]

Yes, David and I (Admiralty Models) are excited to partner with Chuck on this new project. Both of our companies share the same philosophy with regards to service and quality. I, for one, can't wait to see how Chuck innovates our cross-section and makes it accessible to those lacking scroll saws, spindle sanders and the like. I have seen Chuck's concept for constructing built up frames and believe that beginners with a bit of confidence to advanced model makers will be able to make a beautiful fully framed model small enough to fit on their desk.  Here is my version of the Pegasus cross-section which was constructed as a side project when building the full version. Chuck's may not look exactly like this but his will be similar (probably nicer!).

 

[MEDDO]

I love the idea of a partnership/collaboration between 2 of my favorite companies.

[realworkingsailor]

I can't wait to see how far this collaboration may go. I hope some day for a full ship, as opposed to just a cross section. I am one of those lacking in finer power tools (don't think my chainsaw is too useful for finescale modelling). Obviously, I recognize all things must start somewhere, and I hope this works out well for everyone. 

[knightyo]

I was going to suggest you do all three since there is interest, but I see that will indeed be the case.   I think you have a home-run lineup of options for builders!  I think once you have all three of the new models up and running, you should allocate a lot of time to marketing in order to reach the widest audience; and then put on your seat belt, because I think you are going to become an extremely busy man. 

 

Alan

[amateur]

Hi Andy,

you are a bit exaggerating. 

We all know your chainsaw isn't your primary tool with any of your builds

But it is true: true POF and cross sections are not easily available for those without the more dedicated equipment.

 

Jan

 

[mitbok]

Cross section looks nice and hopefully goes fast as some work is already done. So wanted to ask about the Boeier in anticipation of the kit

which hopefully comes after.

Chuck, are you going to use the gift to the Russian Zar as the prototype? If so, I may have a useful lead for that particular one.

Is there a possibility to make this one is slightly larger scale, along the lines of 1/35 to 1/30 at least?

There is so much more potential for detail in that scale vs. 1/48

 

[Chuck]

Send me everything you can find.  I wont know too much about scale yet until I get into drafting the plans.  But yes,  that is going to be the prototype and I plan on building it with an open roof like that to detail the cabin.

[mitbok]

As mentioned, there are several models of this  boeijer, one in private collection and two in museums. 

Seems the model that got the MRI was built by the same guy who built the actual, full size boat, which in turn

was sent to Russia. The boat survived the Revolution and war.... to be burned as garbage

Not sure when this happened, guess some time after WWII was over, the management of Central Navy Museum

in Leningrad (St. Petersburg) rendered the boeijer useless and decided to dispose of it by fire 

There might be more to this story and some benefit of the doubt should be given but so far that is what I know.

Below is the scan of the B&W picture of the full size boat when was still alive.

 

[Chuck]

Drafting underway...just an hour or two every now and again when my girls are watching something stupid on TV.   So I sit with them but have my laptop with me while I pretend to be just a little interested.

[Nirvana]

Looking very nice, and fun

[druxey]

Coming along very nicely, Chuck!

[alde]

The drawings are coming along nicely Chuck. I can't wait for this one for a beautiful model but also as a learning tool.

[Morgan]

Hi Chuck,

 

Is it in your thoughts to produce an open Chain Pump option as a mini kit for the cross-section? It’s something I feel always adds a real differentiator to a model as a level of detail not usually available. I’ve always been too slow off the mark to buy a set when they were available from Admiralty Models, but whereas theirs were etched brass perhaps they could be produced in black laserboard like your monograms. Then to stretch the wish list further (😉) if they were available in 1:48 is it too much of a stretch to also offer them up in 1:64? If it’s feasible off course I’m not too sure what the demand would be or the development / investment costs / time, etc. and whether that would make it prohibitive, or whether your relationship with AM already contemplates this, but if you don’t ask .......

 

Gary

[Chuck]

As of right now that is probably not going to happen.  Unfortunately laserboard is not strong enough to use for such pieces.   Etched brass is also very expensive and something like that could add another 40 bucks to the price of a kit.  If I remember correctly that AM sheet was going for around 50. So for now,  its just something I need to consider as I get closer to that part of the build.  It depends on how expensive the kit is at that time because I would like to keep the kit at around $200 -225 give or take.  Anything else would just limit the amount of folks willing to pay for it.  Especially as I need to compete with those cheap-o pirated versions of cross sections that folks are buying.  If I price this too high it just wont sell. except to a select few who can afford it.

 

I would also like to keep this kit at an intermediate level for new builders dipping their toe into POF modeling.  Real POF though..... and not the stylized Hahn stuff or what you see in those kits I mentioned.  That is really my main focus. At 1:64 scale I dont even think it is possible.  It would just be too small for almost everyone to build never mind manufacture.  They are very tiny finicky pieces to deal with.  I think most dont have a real concept of how big they really are when looking at photos by someone who has built those pump details.

 

Chuck

[Morgan]

Thanks Chuck. I certainly agree that as part of a kit it makes no sense, perhaps one day there may be a viable call for an after-market mini kit.

 

Gary

[Peter Bloemendaal]

Hi Chuck,

Just a quick one. Does the cross section have mast details with some rigging as well or is it just the hull.

Peter