Buying an Expensive Kit and throwing most of it away

[Ulises Victoria]

People often see my ships and many times they ask me "how much a kit like this costs?"

 

When I tell them that a good kit for an experienced modeler costs around 1,000 dlls, they usually rise an eyebrow and say... "Wow, that is expensive"

I then make them do the following arithmetic: Cost of kit = x, hours invested in building thus, hours of fun = y  x/y = z... z is usually lower than the cost of going to a movie.  As has been said, all is relative. 

[Lucius Molchany]

Looks great!can you post more close ups?

[The Old Man]

Looks great!can you post more close ups?

It's pretty rough up close.  I had no plans. No past experience. Bought 2 used books. Used this web site and Dr. Google.  All the parts are hand cut from wood I found, or Bass wood I was able to buy. Lot's of carving and sanding. I'm sure the scale is off in some areas. I know I made the stern deck too low. Lot's of small mistakes I'm sure. Filled the garbage bucket with sometimes hours of work. Compared with the quality on this site, it's Folk Art.

 

I am finding rigging to be a bad experience. I have poor eyesight, loss of feeling in my fingers. CA glue makes me sick.

Bought the canon and grating. Those little canon are like gold nuggets!  Plus, I really don't care for them. 

[AnobiumPunctatum]

I think Chuck's idea to sell parts for a ahip model as he does with his cutter Cheerful is an excellent idea.

You can buy the drawings and perhaps the bulkheads, choose the timber for the planking job and buy then the smaller parts if you like. I hope that other manufacturers will copy his idea (if he don't has the Copyright for this )

There are a lot of talent modelers who don't have an own workroom or the money to buy the machines. For these kits especially on Chucks way are the only possibility to take up the hobby.

[jbshan]

If you get the golf bug, which is a permanent addiction, you have to buy all the equipment, say $1K, drop a c-note each time, maybe, just for greens fees, cart extra, perhaps join a club, a couple of $K more, you've way over spent several years' worth of boat yard expenses.  Skiing is in the same category.   After each of those is the possibility of either Aprés Ski or the Nineteenth Hole, another addiction we needn't go into.

Do you like to shoot, skeet or target?  Buy the gun, join a gun club, buy the ammo, again there is the clubhouse afterwards.  Tennis ditto.  You'll soon develop a need for a new gun, new clubs or skis, a better tennis racket, etc., etc.

That saw you bought will last you for years, and will let you get into making your own plank stock, or cutting frames or bulkheads if it's that sort.

Pick a pastime, there aren't many as inexpensive over time as building little boats.

[Lucius Molchany]

Well the cannon look just fine to me well done!

[CDW]

At least it's not quite as bad as what I have been guilty of doing in the past...buying expensive kits and letting them sit on a shelf until some parts and plans became ruined. In some cases, have lost entire kits for one reason or another. 

[Landlubber Mike]

Hey, did the OP write this after looking at my logs?

 

My first kit was the Badger, which I mostly did from the kit and just added some details like furled sails.  I have four more kits stashed away - two I'm working on at the moment (Amati Pegasus and Corel Unicorn), as well as the MS Charles Morgan and the Euromodel FWZP.  After those, I should be ready for full on scratch building, and will build Le Gros Ventre from the Ancre plans if rigging cannons on the earlier builds doesn't kill me first.  Anyway, each of those four kits I paid significantly below retail, so I don't mind replacing the kit wood or detail pieces with better pieces.  I'm not at the level of scratch building yet (even though I have bought the tools for it), but I don't mind spending money for the plans and pieces I will use like the bulkheads and keel.  I might end up replacing some or all of the other pieces, but the kit pieces at least are a good template to start with.  If I bought the plans and some plywood or MDF to build to bulkheads and keel, I probably would have come close to what I paid for the kit itself.  Ultimately, I want a model that I'm proud of at the end, and not one where I wish I had done something differently.

 

As others have mentioned, these are long term projects (especially for me with how slow I build).  On a per hour basis, this hobby is incredibly cheap relative to my prior hobbies of playing golf, drinking beer and chasing women - and a lot better for marital harmony now that I'm married 

[The Old Man]

I was wondering about the older Kits I sometimes see on Ebay. I thought about buying one. Then I thought about how wood rots and deteriorates over time. If a Kit has been sitting in a closet somewhere, or even worse in a attic, then humidity and moisture have to be taking a toll too. How old is the expensive Kit being sold by the retailer?  How long has the Kit been on their shelf, or back warehouse? Three years old, five, or even ten?  I want wood to be dry, not aged like cheese.

 

Do you accept funky models like mine in the scratch build section?  I thought about it when I started, then I thought what would happen if I never finished it, or it ended up in the wood stove. Plus, I think I broke a lot of rules while building it. I didn't want to end up looking stupid.

[Nirvana]

Ever tried to take up a hobby like golf.  It is just as expensive.   If not more.  Its all relative.  Folks always start with kits and then some move on to scratch.  Its the way its been for 75 years.   It just depends on how much you like it.  If I spent 600 bucks on golf equipment and didnt want to spend more on the better stuff.......its very common.   Those that really get into it spend 1000's of dollars each year.  Some never get to that level of play however.  Same is true for for our hobby.

 

Chuck

Chuck, you are so right about golf even though I don't play I understand it is very costly.

Okay, with golfing you will spend time out in the fresh air, in comparison to our workshops.

[CDW]

Chuck, you are so right about golf even though I don't play I understand it is very costly.

Okay, with golfing you will spend time out in the fresh air, in comparison to our workshops.

 

My foray into golf ended when I was 18 years old. I made a mighty, smooth swing with a driver.....and promptly lost my grip, tossed the club about 300 yards. After suffering much laughter from onlookers and a stern tongue lashing from my football coach (who thought I did it on purpose), never picked up a set of clubs again. 

[dgbot]

I built several kits over the years and the main reason was the tools and equipment needed to do it any other way.  I remember doing a Harvey by A&L  the wood was dry brittle and warped and the fittings were horrid.  This was when I started to bash the kit.  I gave the finished model to my mother who was thrilled.  Since then I have bashed every kit I got.  However over the years I was able to accumulate the tools that would help me to replace or rebuild the parts I was not happy with.  At the Chicago clubs we always encouraged kits and working with them.  

David B

[pirozzi]

Ok everybody, I think this topic has gone off the subject. I have also noticed that it has ruffled some feathers. There are some that have taken offense and are claiming ridiculing and critisizing of their personal beliefs. I only posted this thread to ask a question and not judge anyone. The very first words posted were "I hope I don't offend anyone"

 

If we can't all be friends here, I will ask the administrators to delete this thread so we can get on with building ships and be friends again.

 

Vince P.

[Cathead]

One aspect I haven't seen discussed (or possibly I missed) is mental. Now that I'm nearly done with my Bertrand scratchbuild, definitely the most complex model project I've ever tackled, I'm quite looking forward to building something with instructions. The biggest different between scratch and kit building is in your head; in the former you have to think everything through ahead of time, have a complete plan for order of operations, ordering parts, making sure items are ready when you need them, doing steps in the best order, etc. Even a kit with poor instructions gives you some sense of where to proceed next, and the comfort that someone has thought through how that project works (even if they thought about it in another language).

 

I'm taking on Chuck's longboat next, and can't wait for him to tell me what do to for a little while; it's going to be very relaxing after nine months of constantly thinking about the next ten steps in my build. I can easily imagine how many people would enjoy gussying up a kit while still wanting that basic framework of instructions and such. The mental leap to personally "designing a kit" is pretty large, in my opinion.

 

Added thought: I don't at all buy the argument that ship modelling is too expensive. It's only true if you have no sense of personal economics or self-control. If you buy a soda or a candy bar every day without even thinking, you've just spent the price of a good model kit annually. My Bertrand has cost less than $300 in materials and was built with basic hand tools. I'm self-employed and live on a very tight and careful budget, and I can afford to build models because I budget for them, and make choices based on what I can afford and justify, not what I want or dream about.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Cathead

[skipper1947]

Why do we feel others need to "justify" the way they pursue a hobby? If I need to the way I pursue model building, I might as well go to work. I choose to not do that.

[The Old Man]

Why not organize a "Official Kit Review Board"?    Once a month review a Kit for quality, then send the Kit Manufacturer an "Official Letter" as to the quality of the Kits materials and documentation.  I am sure that some Manufacturers would appreciate some constructive feedback.  A organized  "Official Kit Review Board" would get their attention faster than a single disgruntled email complaining of wood quality or lack of instructions. 

 

I spent today looking at Ship Models from various manufactures. It only confused me. Is there a central rating system somewhere that rates each individual model? A Comparison page somewhere? When I shop for a camera, there are comparison pages. How do I compare Wood Ship Models without opening a box and examining the materials inside? Which I cannot do. I suppose I could buy a $400 plane ticket and fly to my nearest Ship Model Kit retailer, which is in California, and look into a box to determine the quality of the wood.  

[Cathead]

Skipper, I don't see it as "justification", necessarily, but rather as an interesting exercise in how and why we make the choices we do. Sometimes, by judging or assessing others, we learn things about ourselves. There's certainly a line that can be crossed, but I don't think it's inherently unreasonable to question why something is done.

[Cathead]

Daves, as a business owner myself, I very much support what you've said in this forum. Customer reviews are a double-edged sword. Obviously you want to know what your customers think, but those thoughts aren't always fair, accurate, or well-informed.

[The Old Man]

As a new builder, and a retired person with a very low monthly cash flow, I am afraid to order a Kit. Living on a isolated Island, I am forced to buy everything sight unseen.   If I spend $300-$400, plus shipping cost, for a Kit that has poor materials, then I am forced to replace those materials for another added cost.  Many times the shipping costs for items I order, exceed the price of the item I am ordering!

 

I would love to build a custom Kit, with the finest custom Laser cut materials. But, I am new to the hobby. What if I make a mistake? One that cannot be corrected. Or did a poor job in building. Which is most likely.  Now it's $500-$700 in the wood stove.

 

I guess that's why I am only building with scrap materials. Or making my own by purchasing 1/16 Basswood sheets and laminating it together with Elmers Glue.  

[Nirvana]

Just another 2 cents,

I don't feel there is anything wrong of replacing material in a kit.

All wood has different charactarisctics, have they behave when bending and taking paint and stain/varnish.

And yes, if anyone of us like show the ship in her skin (no paint on the hull and/or deck), a different wood can certainly enhance the final product.

[Altduck]

Old Man,

 

Do you get pleasure and enjoyment from the hours you spend on your models?

Do you get satisfaction from finding and reusing scrap materials?

Does this hobby and methodology fit your interests and budget?

 

If yes, then you are doing it EXACTLY the right way for you.

 

Enjoy it.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

[The Old Man]

Old Man,

 

Do you get pleasure and enjoyment from the hours you spend on your models?

Do you get satisfaction from finding and reusing scrap materials?

Does this hobby and methodology fit your interests and budget?

 

If yes, then you are doing it EXACTLY the right way for you.

 

Enjoy it.

 

Regards,

 

Richard

 

Yes, to all the above, until I started working on the rigging. Poor eyesight and little feeling in my fingers. Just can't seem to do those fancy knots.  So I'll have to cheat a little.

[mtaylor]

 Plus, I think I broke a lot of rules while building it. I didn't want to end up looking stupid.

 

Uh.. what rules?   The rules as such... build what you want, the way you want.    As for "looking stupid"... I don't think so.  The reason for this site is to learn from each other and that works in spades.   We all make mistakes but that doesn't make us stupid.

 

Why not organize a "Official Kit Review Board"?    Once a month review a Kit for quality, then send the Kit Manufacturer an "Official Letter" as to the quality of the Kits materials and documentation.  I am sure that some Manufacturers would appreciate some constructive feedback.  A organized  "Official Kit Review Board" would get their attention faster than a single disgruntled email complaining of wood quality or lack of instructions. 

 

 

There's another purpose of this site... the build logs, the questions and answers.  They all do more for sorting things than any "official review" could ever do.  There's several manufacturers do read and post here and listen to what's being said.  

[mtdoramike]

Mark nailed it. I'm the Bob Ross of ship modeling. You have the right way of doing it and then you have my way of doing it, which is usually the path of least resistance.

 

 

mike

[Keith_W]

I suspect that Vince P started this thread with reference to my build. To answer your question Vince, the reason I am chucking all those metal pieces away is because: when I bought the kit, I was not ready to scratch build. Did not own the tools, was not mentally prepared, lacked confidence. Prior to the Royal William, my most ambitious build was the HMS Bounty, and even that had its fair share of mistakes. I was not sure I could tackle something like the RW, let alone scratch build it.

 

I decided to purchase the RW. I would try my hand at scratch building as many pieces as possible - and if I fail, I could always use the kit supplied parts. As it turns out, my attempts at scratch building most of the pieces seem to be working all right. I like the results more than the kit parts anyway. Trust me, I am completely objective and unsympathetic towards my own efforts - if something I make is inferior to the kit part, it goes into the bin and I use the kit part.

[CDW]

There's another purpose of this site... the build logs, the questions and answers.  They all do more for sorting things than any "official review" could ever do.  There's several manufacturers do read and post here and listen to what's being said.  

 

This is SO true. Since coming back to this site after many years away, it's an invaluable resource to learn, or in many cases, relearn, what it is I do not know or have otherwise forgotten.

Did not know until last night that the DeAgostini kits of the Victory and Surprise were actually the AL kits....which can be bought for half the price! 

[pirozzi]

I suspect that Vince P started this thread with reference to my build. To answer your question Vince, the reason I am chucking all those metal pieces away is because: when I bought the kit, I was not ready to scratch build. Did not own the tools, was not mentally prepared, lacked confidence. Prior to the Royal William, my most ambitious build was the HMS Bounty, and even that had its fair share of mistakes. I was not sure I could tackle something like the RW, let alone scratch build it.

 

I decided to purchase the RW. I would try my hand at scratch building as many pieces as possible - and if I fail, I could always use the kit supplied parts. As it turns out, my attempts at scratch building most of the pieces seem to be working all right. I like the results more than the kit parts anyway. Trust me, I am completely objective and unsympathetic towards my own efforts - if something I make is inferior to the kit part, it goes into the bin and I use the kit part.

ActuallyKeith, this post was not aimed at anyone in particular. While it is true that your build seems to fit, you answered my question with a logical answer. I only asked the question to find out why people do what they do, and not to criticize as some think. If I was in your position, I would probably do the same with my kit. I did not care for the quality of the window castings either, but chose to modify them. I do not have the skill or resources to create new ones.

 

Vince P.

[vossy]

i have only 2 rules:

 

1. given most vessels i build are actually 3 to 4 hundred years old, i always try to throw out and replace the plastic parts that most models seem to contain. given plastic wasn't invented until 1907 i don't feel too bad about this.

 

2. just enjoy your build. this is not the ship modelling Olympics.

 

cheers

 

chris

[Burroak]

I'm a novice ship builder. I'm working on the USS Constitution by ME.Since I have no experience in ship building the kit was perfect for me. If I had just bought the plans I wouldn't even know where to start but as time has passed I have learned so much from all the talented builders here on MSW. I've learned there is a basic order to building a ship and now after I complete the Conny I will most likely try my hand at scratch building. I think cutting the bulkheads and keel would be the most difficult parts to cut and if you think about it after you assemble the bulkheads and keel from a kit most of the rest of a kit is scratch build.

 

Greg H.

[CDW]

I'm a novice ship builder. I'm working on the USS Constitution by ME.Since I have no experience in ship building the kit was perfect for me. If I had just bought the plans I wouldn't even know where to start but as time has passed I have learned so much from all the talented builders here on MSW. I've learned there is a basic order to building a ship and now after I complete the Conny I will most likely try my hand at scratch building. I think cutting the bulkheads and keel would be the most difficult parts to cut and if you think about it after you assemble the bulkheads and keel from a kit most of the rest of a kit is scratch build.

 

Greg H.

Being a long-time modeler, and looking at the big picture with 20-20 hindsight...if I had it to do all over again, would concentrate my initial efforts on acquiring good quality tools, such as saws, clamps, a lathe, a planer, a good scroll saw, etc. 

All this would be in anticipation of scratch building. It is so rewarding and satisfying to build from scratch. Alas...the temptation to buy instant gratification through a kit has always been so great, I failed to take the time and develop the discipline to acquire the proper tools, first. But then again, I mostly did the best I knew how at the time and only realized the better scratch-building solution after years went by.

Most important thing is to have fun and don't make the hobby a job. It should be a pleasure, not a source of frustration and regret. A guy can have a lot of fun with kits. I know, because I have.

 

Regards

Craig