Ship Kits and Cost?

[PRS]

I don't have a lot of experience building ships yet but am on my second build which is the Lady Nelson.

 

I have been looking at all the different kits and manufacturers and sometimes I see a kit which makes me glad I am sitting down.

 

Case in point: Why is the Maris Stella HMS Ontario Great Lakes Snow of 1780 1:48 Scale https://modelexpo-online.com/Maris-Stella-HMS-Ontario-Great-Lakes-Snow-of-1780-148-Scale_p_4621.html $969.99??

 

Is it because it is a new kit? Have something special I don't see?

 

Then you look at a ship of the same era such as the Model Shipways Niagara and it is $369.99? I know it is a smaller scale but there is a huge price difference.

 

I could get Chuck's Cheerful starter kit and wood kit for $200.00 and it looks to be of great quality and yes I know I will need to add to that by another hundred or two by the time I am done but these are long projects and I don't mind spending the money if it is worth it over the long time it takes to build.

 

The Amati kit is very nice for the Lady Nelson (a lot better than my previous build) but I would hate to spend a thousand bucks on a kit that is a dog.

 

Yes this sounds like a newbie question but I am a newbie

 

[Bob Cleek]

Apparently, some kit manufacturers have come to realize that P.T. Barnum was right: "There's a sucker born every minute."  

 

I think that Chuck's "installment sales" model is a good one, from the modeler's point of view. It reflects the fact that he wants his customers to have a good modeling experience and perhaps come back for more. Other manufacturers don't care whether the models they sell ever get finished or not. They realize many kits are purchased by inexperienced folks who judge a kit by the picture on the box and the number of "parts" the box claims to maintain. Packaging is part of their marketing plan. When somebody gives up on one of Chuck's models, they don't buy the remaining phases and Chuck loses out. When some of the European kit manufacturers sell those high-priced "mega-kits" with a million parts and acres of gingerbread, they get their profit up front and the customer eats it when they give up on their build.

 

I'd be interested to see what the established kit manufacturers' profit margins look like. Once they "tool up" for cast parts and amortize their "research and development" (which for some isn't much,) their materials costs are negligible compared to what they sell their models for, many of which have been on the market for years with little or no upgrading. 

[Chuck]

The Ontario is just $500 if you buy direct from the MFG.  Shipping wont cost you $400.  It all depends on how much the kit is marked up by a distributor and what the wholesale cost it.   Remember too that the Cheerful isnt a kit.   You will need a table saw to rip your own planks which reduces the cost of parts.  All told about $500 rigged for Cheerful also.

 

In addition you need to look at the wood types.   Niagara is all basswood which is very cheap wood.  Better woods like Yellow cedar and boxwood used for Cheerful will add costs. Lots of it....

 

Shop around for prices.....and consider the quality of the contents.  Also check the build logs here for those kits to see if it is well designed and made of good materials.  What are castings like?   Good quality resin castings.....brass turned guns or awful white metal castings.

 

Lots to consider beyond size.

 

Chuck

 

 

 

[Gregory]

Have you looked at any of the Vanguard kits.

 

They are priced very competitively considering the quality..

 

If you are fixed on the Ontario, there is only one source..

[ccoyle]

35 minutes ago, Gregory said:

If you are fixed on the Ontario, there is only one source..

 

Not quite -- as Chuck pointed out, you can buy that kit direct from the manufacturer.

 

Also, seasoned modelers know never to pay MSRP for anything from Model Expo. Get on their mailing list and wait for sales, of which they have many, often featuring deep discounts.

 

Also also, keep an eye on FleaBay. Based on their Buy It Now prices and minimum bid settings, most sellers on eBay these days seem to think that their wares are made of solid gold, but bargains do occasionally turn up.

 

Another option: try card models! They're dirt cheap compared to wooden or plastic kits and oodles of fun, too. Once you try card, you'll never go back to wood! Well, I still do, but maybe you won't! 😄 P.S. I will be reviewing some more card models in the near future -- watch for them in the Kit Reviews section.

[RichardG]

2 hours ago, PRS said:

Yes this sounds like a newbie question but I am a newbie

 

Newbies are always welcome and it's a perfect question. 👍

 

I would be concerned about the lack of detailed descriptions. "Wood, fittings and rope are the first class quality" is meaningless. All the photos also appear to be computer generated.

 

 

 

[glbarlow]

As Chuck notes Cheerful isn’t a kit and not a useful comparison to one. it’s a great model but I wouldn’t recommend it for your second one, it’s a lot more than Lady Nelson, I’ve built both. 
 

I wouldn’t buy anything from Model Expo. I highly recommend Vanguard models. Chris makes great kits of great wood with excellent plans and instructions. Even with UPS shipping from the UK they are a very fair priced kit. You’ll get so much more for your money. Check out build logs for Flirt, Speedy and Duchess on Kingston. 

Edited April 28, 2021 by glbarlow

[PRS]

Wow some good and helpful people here!

 

I never thought to look for getting right from the manufacturer and really am not stuck on the Ontario but would love to build a ship from that era.

 

I am not trying to say I don't have the money to buy a kit but do have to watch what I spend and don't want to put out my hobby dollars on something that isn't worth the price. Guess it all boils down to bang for buck.

 

I have built a lot of RC aircraft and have done kits and complete scratch from plans so not afraid of doing scratch. (scratch building usually costs more than a kit in the end I have found for RC Aircraft) But I need to get a few builds before I attempt something like that.

 

It is just for me I am unsure of who makes good kits and who makes bad kits.

 

Example: My Bluenose build was fun but the quality of the deadeyes and blocks sure was bad compared to the same parts that are in my Lady Nelson kit. 

Sure I could have pitched the parts and bought better ones but I did not know that they were not good. (you don't know what you don't know)

 

I have been following a lot of masterpiece builds here and am learning a TON here. But a lot of you are fantastic builders and can make a bad kit look good.

 

Always welcome for more thought on this and when I get to the point of ordering another kit I sure will look at the build logs because I don't think there is any kit out there there isn't quite a few build logs.

 

One of the best tips I had read was SLOW DOWN and since I started to build at a slower pace it sure is satisfying to fit a hull plank that fits perfect without clamping. 

[Roger Pellett]

A question not addressed above is “ will the kit produce an historically accurate model?”  There is no point in spending several hundred dollars to produce a model that does not look like the ship that it is supposed to represent.  Many of the older European Plank on Bulkhead were notorious for producing historically inaccurate models.  

 

The models built from kits sold by the newer companies like Syren, and Vanguard, and the HMS Ontario that you were looking at are a vast improvement in this regard.

 

If you are interested in building a War of 1812 vessel that sailed on one of the Lakes keep in mind that original drawings exist for HMS Ontario and it is my understanding they were the basis for the kit.

 

On the other hand no drawings or design information exists for the original USS Niagara.  Since the 1913 Centennial of the battle several attempts have been made to build a replica of the ship.  The late Howard Chapelle, the dean of American maritime history produced a set of plans in the 1930’s and later wrote that he was not happy with them.  The replica now sailing on Lake Erie was based on a new set of plans drawn in the 1980’s, and  reflects US Coast Guard safety regulations and other additions required to haul passengers.  While she is a handsome sailing ship no one can claim that she accurately resembles the actual 1813 vessel.  I believe that if you build the current Niagara kit, you are building a model of this replica.

 

Roger

[Matt D]

I don’t know a lot about Maris Stella kits, but the HMS Ontario Great Lakes Snow is a really interesting subject to me.  How many of these fantastic ships are still in tact today?  It’s too bad there are no complete build logs for that kit.  Overpriced or not, it might be on my list for some time down the road.

[GuntherMT]

Buying that exact same kit direct from Maris Stella is currently priced at $376 USD.  Obviously you will pay shipping on top of that.  I have no idea why Model Expo is marking it up so much.  Even with their frequent 40-50% off sales you might still be better off buying directly from Croatia for this kit.

 

The Maris Stella build logs that I've seen show some really good quality parts and excellent wood, so they should be priced higher than an equivalent sized Model Shipways kit IMO.

[Roger Pellett]

It might also be that Model Expo does not expect that anyone will pay nearly $1000 for this kit.  If they were to “put it in sale” with a discount of 50% gullible buyers would still be paying more for it than they would direct from the mngr. but would think that they were getting a great deal.

 

A number of years ago a well known department store announced an across the board price reduction, but no more sales, coupon deals, etc.  This logical sales policy was a total flop.  Shoppers, my wife included, missed the illusion that by waiting for sales, they were getting a great deal.

 

Roger

[myxyzptlyk2003]

Hi all

Just ordered this kit directly from Maris Stella.     Kit plus the 3d bow and stern + shipping came to 475 euros.   That works out to be about $550 US??

[Aoi]

Hi,

seems no luck for me now that I tried to buy from them directly.

Sent emails to them but got responses asking me to buy from Model expo as the price would be similar after additional costs like shipping, brokerage etc... 😔

[allanyed]

Hi Aoi

To which manufacturer are you referring?    If they have a contract or agreement with a rep (Model Expo) here in the US, they are probably legally, and certainly morally, obliged to work through them.  They will not keep a good rep for long if they are going to steal every customer that tries to go around this agent to save a couple bucks?   

Allan

 

[rudybob]

On 4/27/2021 at 6:07 PM, glbarlow said:

As Chuck notes Cheerful isn’t a kit and not a useful comparison to one. it’s a great model but I wouldn’t recommend it for your second one, it’s a lot more than Lady Nelson, I’ve built both. 
 

I wouldn’t buy anything from Model Expo. I highly recommend Vanguard models. Chris makes great kits of great wood with excellent plans and instructions. Even with UPS shipping from the UK they are a very fair priced kit. You’ll get so much more for your money. Check out build logs for Flirt, Speedy and Duchess on Kingston. 

I would like to know why you would not buy anything from Model Expo.

[Aoi]

Hi Allan,

To Marisstella like the others here according to the instructions on their website. 

But ye that's what I'm thinking as well now. Seems the time that they announced their US rep on their website is after this thread here.  

Thx

[glbarlow]

40 minutes ago, rudybob said:

like to know why you would not buy anything from Model Expo.

Bad customer experience and shoddy product. I got a very tarnished and scratched up brass pedestal that had been obviously repackaged. After long delays in responses they finally shipped a replacement that was in worse condition than the first. Didn’t get a response back at all after that. I admittedly gave up after that. So many other places to buy from. 

[rudybob]

43 minutes ago, glbarlow said:

Bad customer experience and shoddy product. I got a very tarnished and scratched up brass pedestal that had been obviously repackaged. After long delays in responses they finally shipped a replacement that was in worse condition than the first. Didn’t get a response back at all after that. I admittedly gave up after that. So many other places to buy from. 

I'm having a similar experience with them now. I am anxious to get parts that may have been poorly crafted. I won't know for certain if it's a one off until the new parts arrive and it is taking longer (3.5) weeks then I would like.

Responses from Model Expo are not that helpful. Thank You for your reply. I appreciate it

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by rudybob
typo

[grsjax]

Don't email Model Expo.  They never seem to respond well.  Call them directly.  I have had good luck that way when getting replacement parts.

[Cathead]

Three points:

 

(1) My understanding is that the Ontario kit is brand-new, which naturally raises its price because the designer and manufacturer have yet to reap any benefits from sales or economy of scale. For example, setting up the casting of any metal parts costs money up front but once manufacturing is flowing it gets ever cheaper to reproduce those castings. Eventually the price will come down as the initial investment is paid off. Also, I believe that kit used a bunch of fairly new/innovative 3D design techniques to produce some of the trickier parts, which raises the potential quality of the kit but also its price, compared with an older kit using poorly cast metal and/or just providing you with raw materials to make the part yourself (think detailed windows). Finally, if it's made in Europe, it's probably especially expensive to ship over to the US right now given how messed up shipping and supply chains are. 

 

(2) As others have said, use sensible buying practices. I just looked, and this kit is currently marked down to $699 from $969 on Model Expo. So you just "saved" ~$270 by looking again.

 

(3) A touchy point for me is people complaining about the price of kits (this is not aimed at the original poster here, but a more general comment). Designing and producing kits is a very time- and labor-intensive process, and kit-makers are businesses that have to earn a living. Cheap kits are generally cheap for a reason; either they're low-quality or they've been around long enough that their makers have long since recouped initial costs (and this often means their quality and design is out of date, as is the case for some Model Shipways kits). Or in a few cases they're pseudo-kits that expect you to do a lot more scratch work than the average kit, thus keeping costs down (e.g., Syren).

 

There's no inherent "right" to afford whatever model kit you want. We aren't all made of money (I certainly watch my budget) but a good life lesson is that sometimes we can't afford things we want, or need to make hard choices to get things we want. Personally, even $1000 works out to a pretty good return on investment for something that would take the average people a couple years to build; that's ~$50-$100 a month, the price of cable TV and with far less toxic effects no matter what glue you use! 

 

EDIT: Meant to add, for anyone interested in the Ontario, check out the book Legend of the Lake, which tells her story in good detail with extensive drawings, along with images of the wreck and the story of its discovery.  

Edited April 27, 2022 by Cathead

[Bill Morrison]

One of the things I do to help reduce the costs of ship models is to comparative shop. For example, I used to shop with Model Expo, but as their offerings declined, as their costs rose, and the quality of their service declined, I switched to 1) Model Dromedary, 2) www.agesofsail.com, and 3) from various European sources.  I found that I could find better prices and shipping costs by varying my sources.

 

Bill

[glbarlow]

The OPs question was answered long ago………

[Bill Morrison]

I'm still weighing in with my answer because nobody has said what I said. Is that okay?

Bill

[chris watton]

15 hours ago, Cathead said:

There's no inherent "right" to afford whatever model kit you want. We aren't all made of money (I certainly watch my budget) but a good life lesson is that sometimes we can't afford things we want, or need to make hard choices to get things we want. Personally, even $1000 works out to a pretty good return on investment for something that would take the average people a couple years to build; that's ~$50-$100 a month, the price of cable TV and with far less toxic effects no matter what glue you use! 

 

Yep.

 

I remember when in my 20's, and working at a foundry 5-7 days per week, I saved up a part of my weekly wage for 4 months in order to buy the Sovereign of the Seas, which I guess would be near the equivalent of £1000 today. As that took me two years to build in my spare time, I figure it was still a bargain, compared to a lot of other hobbies.

[wool132]

Bill M.: Fine with me. Lots better than starting a new thread on the same subject!

Edited April 28, 2022 by wool132

[rudybob]

16 hours ago, Bill Morrison said:

One of the things I do to help reduce the costs of ship models is to comparative shop. For example, I used to shop with Model Expo, but as their offerings declined, as their costs rose, and the quality of their service declined, I switched to 1) Model Dromedary, 2) www.agesofsail.com, and 3) from various European sources.  I found that I could find better prices and shipping costs by varying my sources.

 

Bill

I looked for but could not find Model Dromedary. Do you have a link? Thanks

[ccoyle]

1 minute ago, rudybob said:

Model Dromedary

 

I believe they went out of business years ago.

[Gregory]

17 hours ago, Bill Morrison said:

One of the things I do to help reduce the costs of ship models is to comparative shop.

I may have mentioned earlier that Cornwall Model Boats is a great source for Italian kit makers.

Even with shipping they are usually substantially less than US vendors like ModelExpo.

[Roger Pellett]

I am old enough to be shocked at the current prices of most things.  I still remember the 1970 annual salary of my first civilian engineering job -$12,000.  The company had contracts to build nuclear power plants and was willing to pay me a premium for my navy nuclear experience.  When the local school district offered my wife a teaching job at an annual salary of $7,500, with a combined salary close to $20,000 we felt that we were making “the big bucks.”  52 years later, spending $250 for a model kit is something that I would not take lightly, to say nothing of $1000.

 

On the other hand, if I was to buy a model kit, whether it cost $250 or $1000, I would want it to meet certain criteria:

Is it based on solid research?

Does the construction method produce an accurately shaped hull?

Does the finished model accurately represent its historic prototype?

Are the kit materials of a quality that can be used as intended by the kit designer?

Are supplied prefabricated parts; fittings, decorations, etc generic or unique to the model being built?  

If generic fittings like blocks deadeyes are included, are they correct scale and correctly shaped?

Will kit supplied materials be durable over the lifetime of the model ( assume 25-50 years)?

Is documentation well written with correct grammar, and clear to scale drawings?  Supplemental information regarding historical research would be desirable.

 

While I have no intention of downsizing in the foreseeable future, I am beginning to realize that I might not always have the luxury of a full sized workshop.  When  and if I am consigned to a “Luxury Resort for Active Seniors,” a $1000 kit meeting the above criteria may well be a better buy than a $250 one that does not.

 

Roger