Group Prototype HMS Winchelsea - FINISHED - 1764 - by Chuck (1/4" scale)

[ChrisLBren]

Lou its trial and error - this is my third attempt on the stem to get the fit as close to where Im satisfied with the assembly.  The flitch of French Pear I bought a couple of years ago is really nice.  I had a local facility mill it to my specs for billets @ 3/8, 1/4 and 3/16 for 100 dollars - way cheaper than buying milled sheets.  And you get consistency of color.  

[Chuck]

Your moving right along Chris.....time to start that build log!!!   You are hooked on the project now.   

 

There are no special jigs or techniques for most of this stuff.  The final fitting as all done by hand.  Its a matter of going slow and testing and tweaking and testing and tweaking, repeat.... until you are satisfied.   The issue becomes when some folks for whatever reason.....skip a few testing and tweaking steps and then settle before they become satisfied.   They do this for various reasons.   Its not a race,  take your time and throw away your missteps, and try again.   

 

Chuck

[Tigersteve]

People think everything is going to magically sand clean after sloppily planking. Don’t know why. The cleaner it is before you sand, the cleaner it will be after. One piece at a time!

Steve

[Chuck]

 

 

A small update after a lot of work and elbow grease.

 

The fairing cap is completed.  I am calling this the fairing cap only because it is an aid to help you fair the bulwarks inboard to a consistent thickness.  It is 3/16" wide and 1/16" thick and sits atop the sheer.  It really finishes off the sheer nicely.   It will be completely covered up so it doesnt matter what type of wood you use.   You should start in the waist and lay down a length of stripwood along the sheer first.  Keep it flat and level and make sure the outside edge is flush with the exterior hull planking.  

 

Then work your way towards the bow and stern adding the laser cut hance caps if you bought them....and then finally finish it up with more 3/16" x 1/16" strip along the quarter deck and at the bow.   At the bow because it is curved, you will need to cut it from a 1/16" thick sheet.  I pressed this on top of the sheer and simply traced the outboard shape of the bow up to the bollard timbers.   Then I drew another line to indicate the inboard edge so the piece would be 3/16" wide.  Cut it out with a sharp #11 blade.

 

Once done, you can fair the bulwarks inboard.  This will take a while but its best to get it done now so all of that dust and mess falls away rather than collect inside your hull.   One thing to consider while fairing....look at your gunport sills as a gauge and try to keep them consistently deep from bow to stern.   I am about 95% of the way faired which is good enough for me at this point.

 

Now I will start lining off the hull so I can plank below the wales.   Notice how clean and free of laser char the bulkheads are inboard in comparison to the photo below which shows the hance fairing caps.   Nice and clean.   That sheet laying on deck is just scrap and helped me keep my knuckles from getting scraped up on the top  of those bulkheads as I faired inboard.

[Dowmer]

Chuck, I’m sure you’ve answered this before but what do you use for fairing the inboard timbers.  Dremel for large removal areas, files, sanding sticks?  I know there are lots of different ways but I’d be interested in your technique to get consistent and smooth curves and thickness etc.

 

thanks

 

 

 

[Chuck]

I actually chisel out the big stuff.  Less mess.  Easier to breath.  Then I sand with 120 grit to clean it up.

 

Chuck

[Chuck]

Just trying out my new camera guys.  Really crisp photos now I just have to get the color and settings correct.  

 

 

 

[svein erik]

this is real good!!  think i need to find my camara..... am using my mobil and pad for the photo 😲

 

svein erik

 

[Chuck]

I was going to do that but after a few days I realized my phone's camera just wasnt good enough.   So I splurged on a new Cannon.  I am very happy so far with it.

 

Chuck

[scrubbyj427]

Looking good Chuck, can’t wait to get started on this!

[Chuck]

I am so thrilled with this camera....anyway, it enables me to accurately reflect the color of the yellow cedar.  So now I can finally explain what is going on with my model.

 

You may have noticed in the many images of this log that stem appears slightly different in color than the hull planking.   It is a very subtle difference. This is no accident.   The Yellow cedar is not the best wood for your typical stain applications.   The brighter and lighter hull planking is what the Cedar looks like with just some wipe on poly.  About three coats of that above the wales.   I like the natural look of the cedar very much as shown on the hull planking.  I think its beautiful and I could live with it just fine.

 

But because some folks prefer a darker medium tone, I started experimenting on some scrap wood when I built my longboat.   I bought probably  $500 worth of various stains.   I tested them vigorously.   Most failed the test miserably.   All "penetrating" stains.....every last one of them, failed.  Just like when you stain basswood,   it was dark and blotchy and just awful.   I tried 4 brands.   DO NOT USE A PENETRATING STAIN ON YELLOW CEDAR!!!

 

Then I tried about 4 brands of gel stain.   I bought 3 or 4 colors to test from each brand.   Once again, every last test was a dismal failure.  But then I tried this one color......from one specific brand of gel stain which is non-penetrating.   It is

 

Old Masters - fruitwood gel stain.

After about six tests with this particular color and only from this brand.....I tried other brands and other Old Masters colors....it was horrible.   But there was something very different with this particular color.

 

The surface of the cedar was sanded with 320 grit sandpaper.   Three coats of wipe on poly was applied.  This was allowed to fully dry overnight and its very important that you give it a day.   That will look like the untreated planking above the wales....very beautiful.   But then with a soft lint free cloth, apply some fruitwood gel stain.   The longer you let it sit on the wood the darker it will get.  I wiped it off and buffed it clean after only about 1 minute.   It is not penetrating so you will be able to wipe it all off which tones the wood just a bit to your liking.   I do about a six inch area and wipe it off.  Then do the adjacent area.   The two areas blend together well without worrying that the overlap will be darker.  

 

I let this dry overnight....and applied another coat of wipe on poly.   The result is a slightly darker wood that actually resembles boxwood a lot closer.  I like the color a lot.  Not Costello boxwood but it looks like the real English stuff.  The color of many contemporary models.  It evens out the color and looks great.   So yes, if you dont like the really light....more yellow color of Cedar,   You can change it to look like the swatch/mock-up in the photos.   My stem was also treated like this and its why it appears different than the color of the planking.   I have also sanded it and reapplied on the stem many times and it came out very even and you cant see where I did that touch up.  

 

But remember.....I tested so many brands and colors.  This is literally the only one that worked with really really good results.   I also simulated some treenails on that mock-up.  So once I get the planking all completed and add the treenails, I will coat the external planking to match the stem.    All things considered, I think this was a very successful although expensive experiment.   I wanted to save you guys that time and money.   Also save you the chance of ruining your model.   So make a mock-up and test with this Brand and color of gel stain and decide for yourself.

 

 

Compare with the contemporary model of Minerva in the Rogers collection below.

 

 

 

[knightyo]

Man that's going to be crucially helpful to a lot of modelers.  Did you by any chance try that with basswood scrap as well?  I still remember the horror I felt when my initial staining of the Syren went awry, and spending hours of nervous work re-sanding, staining, applying washes, etc etc in order to end up with a decent finish.  

 

Alan

[Chuck]

Actually I did.  The issue with basswood is the fact that it is just too porous.   It looked better than any finish I ever tried on Basswood but the end grain just soaked up too much color and still turned very dark.  Almost black.  But this is a basswood frame treated in the exact same manner as I described above.   Its not bad at all.  What you cant see is the end grain....that is what was a deal breaker for me.  The surface quality is also far inferior to Yellow cedar.  

I actually forgot the most important photo for comparison.   In the photo below,  the gel stain was applied to the planking as well.  This is the color it will be and you can see a vast difference in the surface quality and the lack of grain structure.   It doesnt look so grainy.   In addition, the figurehead....this is the cast resin TAN figurehead.   The one that I beheaded and turned facing forward.   I also tested this and applied the gel stain directly to it without any prep work at all.  Then I buffed it off with a small brush.   In this case it was applied with a brush as well.   I kept a dry clean brush handy and after I applied the gel stain I buffed it off immediately.   Now it matches the treated yellow cedar perfectly.   You can hardly tell it isnt wood at all.  That was so simple.   So much better than painting and trying to get it to look right.  Yellow Cedar is more expensive than basswood but about 1/3 the cost of boxwood.   I am sold on it.  Look at the difference in surface quality between the basswood above.  This finish mimics the warm golden orange color you see on contemporary models that used English boxwood and shellac....I hope.  That is what I was shooting for.  I have a lot of paint touch up on the wales and the red gun ports to do.  They are pretty banged up but I wont bother until after the hull is planked.

 

 

 

 

[knightyo]

The difference b/w the yellow cedar vs basswood is just night and day.  I'm sold, and will actually never use basswood again on anything that will be visible to the viewer.  

 

Alan

[Dowmer]

Chuck, have you tried Tung oil on the AYC?  I used it and love the warm yellow color.

 

 

[Chuck]

Yes but  it makes the cedar too deep a yellow for my tastes.  Its beautiful but not

my preference.

[Chuck]

Ok guys.....the tedious part of lining off the hull is now completed.   Some background info.....

 

On the contemporary model,  there are 25 strakes below the below the wales.  There are no drop planks or stealers at all.  I have however, added one drop plank at the bow which is typical on other contemporary models of frigates.  This will make it easier to get a good run of the planks at the bow so they wont narrow too much into the rabbet.

 

We already have two strakes on the hull below the wales so that leaves 23 more to line off.   Now....if you remember....I have showed how I line off a hull many many times.   I wrote about it in exhaustive detail for Cheerful and for the longboat etc.   There is also a PDF in the database.   Having said this, 95% of the builders still dont bother lining off their hulls.  This is to their disadvantage.  They usually just grab some pre-milled strips and start planking while hoping for the best!!!  Its a cross your fingers approach.  You want to avoid this as much as possible especially on a hull that wont be painted below the waterline or plated with copper.

 

 

We are shooting for this below......but with one drop plank at the bow and 33% larger.

 

You can see some photos of my lining off on the first Winnie model I made below.  Remember that on the first model I didnt use any drop planks at the bow so it was a bit different.  Planking fans......some math.......some artful tweaking......about 50% math and science and 50% art/creativity and eyeballing.   

 

So...............................I am taking a different approach on this newer larger model that I think all of you will be very thankful for.   It took me about 36 hours to line off the new hull over 5 days.   To save all of you the time, after lining off my hull I created a series of tick strips for every bulkhead edge.    These marks can can be transferred to your model so you wont have to spend a few dozen hours lining off your hull if you choose not to.   See the photo below.   There are also templates for the stem.....and more for the stern post and along the bottom edge of the lower counter at the stern.  You just need to print out the PDF and cut the strips out.

 

NOTE the red square on the bottom of each strip.....this side of each tick strip sets against the edge of the plank already finished as shown.  In addition, many of the lines are in red.  These indicate the different belts on the model.  There are four belts.  It just makes it easier to plank the hull so you can treat each belt as a mini-project of its own.  It makes the task of planking so much less daunting.

 

In addition....the tick marks you make on your bulkhead edges should be made on the forward edge of each bulkhead.   This is an important detail. 

 

This will take what was a week's work for me and turn it into just an hour or so for you.  BUT.....you should still double check your work.  You can do this by running a thin strip of black tape along the hull following your tick marks.  You only have to do this for the red belt lines.  This will be a double check to see if when you lined off the hull maybe a tick strip was positioned a little lower or higher.....you may need to adjust and tweak some.   But this gets you 98% of the way there.

 

NOW.....I still believe that all of you should learn how to line of a hull if you have never tried this.  Lining off your own hull is far superior as your hull may be slightly different than mine.  For example....maybe the run of your wales was slightly different than mine at the bow...or at the stern.   This will alter how your lining off will need to be done.   But if you are close to my reference lines and the run of your wales are close to mine...... using these strips will get you 98% of the way there.  I also think this is a perfect hull for trying to line off a hull for the first time as you have some tick strips to compare your own attempts to.   I had written a separate detailed set of instructions for the first Winnie model on how to line off your hull.  I went back in and altered the size info to reflect this larger scale but its still a good description of what I did on this latest model.  In fact its exactly the same.   So for any of you who would rather line off your own hulls you can read through this document below.   Its a good instructional any way.

 

Let me know if you have any questions.  - liningoff.pdf

 

[bdgiantman2]

Absolutely incredible work planking the lower hull of your Winnie model, Mr. Passaro. Now after this overload of information, I want to make sure I am understanding correctly as I am very new to your style of building and markings.  So you want us to take a strip of sticky paper, and make markings on this piece of paper with the beams to plank the hull (you are calling these belts?). Then we are to put this piece of paper onto each rib of any model and make additional tick marks on the actual ribs and after get all the markings done then can use either tape or planks to make sure everything is all properly made? And then after making sure everything lines up properly can start gluing on the hull planks onto the model.

 

Brian

[Chuck]

No.... I already made the tick strips. You will just print them out and transfer the tick marks to each bulkhead edge.  I went ahead and did all that stuff and to save you time just made you the strips with the measurements already done.

[donrobinson]

Amazing tutorial Chuck! This certainly cleared a lot of things up for me regarding this style of planking, looking forward to applying this new found knowledge. Thanks

[TOM G]

You explain thing's exstreamly well. 👍

[druxey]

You folk are being spoon-fed by Chuck, so don't complain or whine! In lining off he has done all the work for you. Just follow the mark-out and hear him. Well done, Chuck.

[Chuck]

Thanks for saying!!!   The pdf docs of the tick strips are below....I will also place them in the downloads area.  It cant get much easier than this.

 

I am about to start planking in a day or so.   Its my favorite part of the project actually.

 

tickstrips.pdf

 

tickstrips2.pdf

 

Chuck

[Tim Murphy]

Chuck, Thank You very much for doing this. This helps all of models like my self ( little talent) but love

Ship models. 

Tim

[Chuck]

You are welcome....but it is a shortcut.   I will always continue to urge folks to line off their hulls.   It gets a bit tiring sometimes as many just think its too hard or daunting.  Then they wonder why their planking looks "off".  I will admit that it isnt fun to do.   But it does make the planking process more fun and easy afterwards.  And the results can not be argued with.  My hope is that after doing it for folks just this once, that when they plank the Winnie hull they will see how different it looks.   They will recognize how important it is to have a planking plan developed so when they plank the next model.....they will give it a try.

 

Here is the other tutorial I did on the subject which also includes some info on spiling.  Its my presentation on the subject when I give one at conferences and meetings.

 

http://modelshipworldforum.com/resources/Framing_and_Planking/Lining Off your hull for planking.pdf

 

Chuck

[ASAT]

On 7/11/2019 at 5:27 PM, Chuck said:

 

Chuck, are you planning on providing the spiling templates too? 😀 There is too much variation in each model to do that realistically isn’t there? These tick strips are an awesome idea though - especially for the belt layouts, I have a hard time getting them to flow correctly with equal spacing... This will be great as I am a visual learner and if I see it done right I can usually get the hang of it.....

Edited August 28, 2019 by ASAT

[Chuck]

No you will have to pre shape each plank but I will explain how I do it.   The last thing I need is to pre-spile 180 planks so you guys can have it even easier....LOL.    Everyone does it differently anyway.   On this particular model I wont be spiling the planks at all.   I will be edge bending them all after tapering them.  No need to cut them from a flat sheet to the correct curve.  The hull is so large that the curve needed at the bow or stern is not that sharp.   It should go very easily.   I am also going to try making a video of the process.  Because every strake is lined off on the hull you already know its width and length and how it should be shaped.   The rest is easy....

 

I will start planking this weekend.

 

Basically I do this.....in this order.  I will try and detail each step.   Just five steps.  I dont clamp.....I dont wet my planks.

 

1.  Taper a planking strip using my lining out at each bulkhead to find the width at each bulkhead.

2.  Edge-bend the strip with heat after cutting the taper.  

3.  Twist the strip to fit on the hull if needed with heat.  Every strip (especially at the bow and stern) needs to be bent, then twisted to lay flat against the bulkheads

4.  Test it in position.....repeat steps 1-3 until good fit-trim its length to fit my butt joint pattern.

5.  Bevel the edge of the strake with a sanding stick to fit tight against the plank already on the hull....line the edge with pencil to simulate caulking and glue it on. 

 

Repeat about 190 times ......until its all done!!!!  I estimated 4 planks in each strake multiplied by 23 strakes on each side.....

 

[Tigersteve]

Chuck- Your tutorials are so clear. People are lucky you’ve provided templates for lining off the hull. Next, people will be asking you to mail them completed models. 😆

Steve

Edited August 28, 2019 by Tigersteve

[ASAT]

10 hours ago, Tigersteve said:

Chuck- Your tutorials are so clear. People are lucky you’ve provided templates for lining off the hull. Next, people will be asking you to mail them completed models. 😆

Steve

OK, hey - ridicule! I guess we are right up there with Facebook, Twitter and the like......

[John Cheevers]

ASAT, Ask away. Tick strips is how used to do it in real shipbuilding.