For Beginners -- A Cautionary Tale

[grsjax]

38 minutes ago, Laggard said:

This newbie got model shipways 18th century longboat as his first kit.

You might want to back track a bit and get the Model shipways Lowell Dory Kit as a place to start.  It is the first model in their Ship Wright series and guides you step by step thorough the process.  The Norwegian Pram is the next in the series.  It will take you further along the path to mastering wooden model building. 

[VTHokiEE]

48 minutes ago, Laggard said:

I’d like to find a current book conveniently providing details on how to do these things.

There are some examples of this in Ship Modeling Simplified by Mastini that might help.

 

[Beef Wellington]

44 minutes ago, Laggard said:

Lots of resources on line but growing up building plastic kits that basically held your hand through the whole build I found it odd that a new modeler was expected to know how to do some of these things. I’d like to find a current book conveniently providing details on how to do these things. 

I think it is important to enter this hobby with a bit of humility, and dare I say it this modern technological age, an expectation that accumulating knowledge takes time and effort to accumulate.  This site is a wonderful resource built up by people passionate about the hobby, sharing their experiences and knowledge, and contains many resources and answers (including to the question on "how to strap a block to a mast" outside of your question).  Reference books are also important depending on level of interest, Lever's "Young Sea Officers Sheet Anchor", and Petersson's "Rigging period ship models to name but two.  Understanding how things were done is necessary to then have an idea on how to model it.  This is not a hobby for instant gratification, although I think Chris Watton's Vanguard model ship line come close to providing most, if not all, the knowledge needed to build out of the box.

[mtaylor]

3 hours ago, Laggard said:

This newbie got model shipways 18th century longboat as his first kit.   It was nominally listed as a good beginners kit.  I was surprised how little detail the instructions provided.   “Strap the block to the mast” was literally all one section said with no instructions on how to do so.   Lots of resources on line but growing up building plastic kits that basically held your hand through the whole build I found it odd that a new modeler was expected to know how to do some of these things. I’d like to find a current book conveniently providing details on how to do these things.  Some of the helpful advice I got from people here were drawings from early 20th century German books on modeling.  Crazy. 

I grew up on the plastics also with good instructions.  However, things have changed.  I finally did a plastic kit after about 30 years of not doing them and was very surprised as the instructions were basically pictures with numbers per illustration showing order and icons showing.... glue or no glue.   But I muddled through it .  Sadly, many wooden kits have gone that way.  I was very pleasantly surprised to see the level of detail in Chris Watton's Vanguard Models kit for the HMS Sphinx.  

 

If you'll do a search here (upper right hand corner) and use key words like ("model shipways" and "longboat" you should see a bunch of hits.  The other way is to go to the kit area and there indexes listing all or almost all the kit builds.   

 

If you decide to build it, do open a log as it's a great way to get help and meet other builders.

[Ryland Craze]

On 9/1/2021 at 1:39 PM, Laggard said:

This newbie got model shipways 18th century longboat as his first kit.   It was nominally listed as a good beginners kit. 

I am currently building this model and I would not recommend this kit for a first time build.  I would go the route that grsjax recommended, the Model Shipways Lowell Grand Banks Dory.  This kit can be purchased at a low price when Model Expo has one of their weekly sales.  You may have to sign up for emails from them to be notified when the sales start and for the discount code.

[DLYNAM]

I'm leaving model railroading, a hobby in which I am very accomplished.  Master Model Railroader #354 with hundreds of hours building kits and scratch building.  I could have made the same mistake as others but since ship models are absolutely nothing like what I'm used to, I thought better of it!

I'm glad I did!  My first ship model is the Dallas Revenue Cutter by A. L.    I purchased some helpful books and it's going ok but I'm glad I didn't depend on the instructions!!!   They only tell you part of the step and the other part is on the plans!  The plan drawings don't always match the parts provided in the kit!  Some random blocks to carve and "make it look like this".  No mention of fairing the keel just the the ribs etc.  Before I go farther I'm getting more info to see what other little tricks they've left out.

Maybe it's just a rite of passage to belong to the ship modelers club.  I have a great respect for those that are successful!

Dave

 

[Jaager]

I think some of the disappointment in the instructions of most traditional wooden ship model kits lies in their different evolutionary pathway from plastic kits.

I think plastic - being a new material - post WWII - and the subjects for the kits were metallic and heavily engineered with lots of detailed plans for the original ships or aircraft or rail or war machines.  The plans for each kit were complete and self sufficient.  Plastic kits are mostly about assembly of pre- formed  components. Plus- now very sophisticated finishing techniques.  In origin, it was just a few jars of Testors oil based paint and a basic small brush.

 

Wooden ships - pre 1860 - had a different sort of plan.  The construction the shipwrights art and was pretty much common to all vessels - with changes from generation to generation.  So there were no voluminous detailed plans to copy for a kit.   

The original versions were solid carved hull scratch builds, using instructions in magazines like Popular Mechanics.  I see the kits starting as a shortcut for those not wishing to carve a block of Pine or Basswood.  

There were a few  how-to  books that were expected to be the major source for directions.   The kits just provided some materials for what was still essentially a scratch build process.  Kits became more involved and reduced a lot of the scratch build aspect.  It was still assumed  that general instruction books would be used for learning the basic techniques.   For wooden kits, it is about first shaping the components and then assembling them.   The basic skills are mostly the same for all kits, so detailed instruction for any single kit is just repeating the same instructions over and over.  It also involves a multitude of tools, that must be learned and practiced with.  

 

 

 

[Bob Cleek]

19 minutes ago, Jaager said:

I think some of the disappointment in the instructions of most traditional wooden ship model kits lies in their different evolutionary pathway from plastic kits.

I agree! You just assemble a plastic kit. "Glue part number 5A into hole number 5B" and so on. There's no need to understand what the part is called or what its function might be. To a greater extent, particularly with earlier wooden models, be they ship or otherwise, at least before laser cutting, is was just assumed by the manufacturers that their customers has some basic understanding of what they were building and adequate woodworking skills to cut and fit the parts together.  Unfortunately, many of recent generations are often clueless when it comes to the manual arts and the high schools by and large abandoning their shop classes hasn't helped any, either. Anybody starting in out in sailing ship modeling would do well to start by reading Chapelle's Boatbuilding and learning how a wooden boat is built from the lines up. That will make their modeling tasks much more understandable. Of course, such advice would be sure to fall on deaf ears in this age of instant gratification. How many kids today know "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey?"

 

[Jasseji]

1 hour ago, Bob Cleek said:

I agree! You just assemble a plastic kit. "Glue part number 5A into hole number 5B" and so on. There's no need to understand what the part is called or what its function might be. To a greater extent, particularly with earlier wooden models, be they ship or otherwise, at least before laser cutting, is was just assumed by the manufacturers that their customers has some basic understanding of what they were building and adequate woodworking skills to cut and fit the parts together.  Unfortunately, many of recent generations are often clueless when it comes to the manual arts and the high schools by and large abandoning their shop classes hasn't helped any, either. Anybody starting in out in sailing ship modeling would do well to start by reading Chapelle's Boatbuilding and learning how a wooden boat is built from the lines up. That will make their modeling tasks much more understandable. Of course, such advice would be sure to fall on deaf ears in this age of instant gratification. How many kids today know "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey?"

 

 

I second the oppinion, that the terminology should be known, but i do not believe that it has anything to do with the facts if you are building a Plastic or Wooden Kit.

 

A lot of manufacturers strive to get easier-build kits and one should not assume that it is anything bad for the hobby, a lot of people maybe cant put aside too much time for a build between work, family and other hobbies but they still should be able to finish a build in a foreseeable time.

 

It seems to me, that there is some "looking down on people" in regards of what choice of kit they made and the assumption that without learning all the skills one should not even attempt a build.

 

Why should someone feel bad about himself if he wants to get quickly past some parts of the build, because he loves tying Ratlines for instance and wants to get to that stage as soon as possible ?

 

[Louie da fly]

9 minutes ago, Jasseji said:

It seems to me, that there is some "looking down on people" in regards of what choice of kit they made and the assumption that without learning all the skills one should not even attempt a build.

 

I hope not, and indeed I don't believe so. It's true that one needs to learn to walk before trying to run, but I certainly haven't found any "looking down" on people who are just starting out, or who choose to build simpler models - at least not on this forum. MSW covers the whole gamut of skills, and in my time here I've found that despite my own ignorance of many aspects of ships and ship-modelling, people have invariably been polite and helpful.

 

Steven 

[bruce d]

2 hours ago, Jasseji said:

It seems to me, that there is some "looking down on people" in regards of what choice of kit they made and the assumption that without learning all the skills one should not even attempt a build.

 

Why should someone feel bad about himself if he wants to get quickly past some parts of the build, because he loves tying Ratlines for instance and wants to get to that stage as soon as possible ?

Hello Jacek,

I think that is a good point: it happens elsewhere but I have not seen it happen on MSW. That is why this is, in my opinion, such a superior 'club'.

There are morals and manners here, and I suppose we have all had encounters with modellers who lack both.

Tying ratlines? Ugh!! 😉

[Jasseji]

21 minutes ago, bruce d said:

Tying ratlines? Ugh!! 😉

 to each his own perversion  

 

Point being, Technology has evolved, understanding of materials and tools have evolved as well, motivation comes from achievement i think and having completed something "Big" gives a kind of Satisfaction where it gives one the Power to go further.

 

Anyways, more easier kits where some tedious and hard parts have been made easier to tackle is a good thing.

 

Granted, i havent seen this behavior on MSW, i saw it in other clubs, not neccessary tied to Model Ships (or even to model building)

Edited September 13, 2021 by Jasseji

[Admiral Beez]

I’m returning to ship model building after an 18 year maternity leave.  I’ve just bought Heller’s 1/150 Le Superbe, but now I’m a little worried …. Just a little but I rigged a plastic kit ship of the line about 20 years ago so I should recall enough.  My intention is to build a ship over a year or more, no rush.  
 

That said, I may buy a small, inexpensive plastic kit to practice on first.  Like this http://www.hobbylinc.com/airfix-hms-bark-endeavour-sailing-shipcaptain-cook-plastic-model-ship-kit-1:120-50047

[Jaager]

13 minutes ago, Admiral Beez said:

 I’ve just bought Heller’s 1/150 Le Superbe, but now I’m a little worried

We have had a recent discussion that essentially pointed out that experience with plastic kits is not much help in prep for tackling a wooden kit.   One is pure assembly and the other is fabrication and assembly.  Plastic kit instructions are generally complete as far as assembly.  In comparison mass market wooden kit instructions are more general  and especially for fabrication there is an expectation that outside text and journal articles will be used as supplements.  There is often frustration and unrealized expectations. with wooden kit instructions   This is why the "start simple" admonition is almost a natural law.   For large and complex wooden ship models there is much skill , knowledge and experience that is expected  in a modeler who attempts it.

 

That said, the rigging is the same in plastic and wood.   Although, the hull is still of some size, 1:150 is a miniature scale.  It is difficult to find rigging line that is usable and in harmony with the scale.

The Le Superbe that i am familiar with is a Sane designed 74.  There were many sisters built in this class.   Boudroit started his published inventory with a 4 volume monograph of this class.   The masting and rigging  are about as well documented as is possible.

Scale limitations in available material will make matching the text very difficult.  Avoiding being over scale is a real challenge.

The spars made from plastic at larger scales are fragile.  Having tension taut rigging and not snapping the plastic spars, I suspect is a long shot.  The taut lines probably have to come rigid before placement material.  Wire is better than fiber at this.  

[Admiral Beez]

17 minutes ago, Jaager said:

The Le Superbe that i am familiar with is a Sane designed 74.  There were many sisters built in this class.   Boudroit started his published inventory with a 4 volume monograph of this class.   The masting and rigging  are about as well documented as is possible.

Scale limitations in available material will make matching the text very difficult.  Avoiding being over scale is a real challenge.

The spars made from plastic at larger scales are fragile.  Having tension taut rigging and not snapping the plastic spars, I suspect is a long shot.  The taut lines probably have to come rigid before placement material.  Wire is better than fiber at this.  

Thanks for this.   Here’s my intro post 

 

[Brian Hanington]

Chris, thank you so much for your candid cautionary tale, which I found truly helpful. As a newbie myself, I am astounded daily by the depth of my ignorance in this field, and yet assured by all the support and wisdom found here on MSW. Everything, of course, is learnable. I was given two beautiful kits for Christmas (Endeavour and Terror, both by OcCre) and I know now that my prudent course of action is to hold off on those and grab one of the half-hull planking project kits from the NRG shop… and figure out what the heck stealers and drop planks are. 🙂 I shall take your advice to heart. Merci bien!

[Baker]

When I saw this ad I was a bit shocked 
Found on a Dutch website (translated to English) 

Building the Soleil Royal of Mantua should be easy. All you need is glue and a hobby knife ...
To all beginners: this is really not true 

 

[Matt D]

19 minutes ago, Backer said:

All you need is glue and a hobby knife

They totally forgot about the delusions of grandeur!

[ccoyle]

Since it's a Mantua product, I'd also be extremely leery of the part that says "comes with an extensive description that explains step by step how the model should be built." 🤨

[EJ_L]

I've built this model and the easiest thing about it was opening the box. If all you use is glue and a hobby knife, you will end up with a pile of wood sticks and metal decorations stuck together in a vague shape of a ship after it was tossed ashore by a hurricane.

 

As someone who has never been traditional in building easier ships and gradually working up to the big ones, I will not say a beginner cannot do this ship, but you will need more than a knife and glue and chances are high that one will become extremely frustrated with the instructions and time involved and never complete it. I forget the exact count, it is on my build log, but I know I worked on this model for over 2,000 hours.

[Don Quixote]

Case in point. My Dad and I built my first plastic model when I was around 5 years old. I think I was 8 when I built the visible V8. I'm sure I built well over 500 plastic models including the USS constitution. Probably the 7th grade I started on the Horatio Hornblower series. Grew up in Grand Haven Michigan, right on Lake Michigan. Nothing but sailing boats. My older brother was a colonel in the Coast Guard and I took the long way (not across Canada) to visit him in Ogdensburg, New York and saw the Niagara. Needless to say I was/am in love with ships. One day I was at the hobby shop and saw the USS Constitution by Constructo on sale for $399. Looked in the box and said some naughty words while saliva dripped from the corners of my mouth.

 

At the time I was going to a full time cooking school in Sacramento California (Moved here in 2003) and renting an apartment because our home was 90 minutes away. Nothing to do in the evenings after school so I brought the model with me. Knew nothing about planking or MSW so you know how that tuned out. After staining it, it looked great. I even got a decent water line. and did fairly well on the deck. Then I got to the rigging. I knew I was in over my head so I didn't bother tying the spars on correctly. I glued them in place and I didn't use any blocks for the rigging. I just tied them in place. Did pretty well with the sails and all in all, it looked great. Well, as long as you didn't know what it was supposed to look like:) Took me 2 years. I'd show you a picture but the wife got a kitten and my computer crashed costing all my pics.

 

School was 1 year and I only went to cooking school because I like to cook. I had no intention of getting a job. I'm retired and after school I worked probably 5 hours a day on that beast. I was pretty happy and having been on the Niagara... So I found MSW and a log of the Niagara by Great Galleon. I did a little better on the hull, but I wound up using a bit of wood filler in a few gaps. Did very well on the decking, buildings and decided to do the rigging correctly. I bought a serving machine from Shipworkshop and did a fair job of making the block and what not. Then it came time to install the rigging. I did good on the rat lines and bowsprit, but I just plain ruined the rigging to the spars. I hung the spars correctly but I pulled the rope too tight and they are all askew. So I gave up and somewhere here on MSW is an abandoned log. I heard the Bluenose II was supposed to be easy so I snagged that. Supposed to be the easiest to plank. Tossed that in the trash.

 

Waiting on my Santa Maria Caravel 1/64 to get here. Just read this topic and now I wonder if I bit off more than I can chew:( Again. So I just bought the MS1470 Model Shipways Lowell Grand Banks Dory Model Wooden Model Ship Kit 1:24 Scale.

 

So what's my point? My daddy didn't raise no quitters. AND i LOVE SHIPS!!!

[druxey]

The dory kit will be a good re-set for you. Good luck with it. The dory is a good starting point for learning basic techniques that will help you with more advanced models later on.

[BranPie]

On 8/12/2021 at 3:21 AM, Bob Cleek said:

... 

In my opinion, the best way to learn is by building a challenging, sophisticated kit that has good instructions, rather than a "dumbed down" "beginner's kit" with inadequate instructions. 

 

I couldn't agree more. I'm on my first kit, Polaris from Occre, and whilst it is indeed a good beginner kit in that it's simple, it is also uninspiring and often frustrating to work on.

 

The cheap materials (especially the "walnut" ply which has the tendency to crumble as soon as you touch it and the 0.6mm "walnut" strips which are so hard and brittle that it's nearly impossible to do anything with them) are really no fun at all to work with. The instructions are simplified so much that if you follow them you don't learn to plank properly (and if you try the wood quality drives you insane (this is where I'm struggling now, I almost binned my model last week) and you don't learn to do rigging properly (I've decided I'm not going to try on this model, I just don't have enough knowledge to make something of it).

 

So in the end, at best, you end up with an OK model... I'll be putting much more thought into what my second build wil be. The Vanguard kits are at the top of my list, because they seem to have excellent instructions and are designed so even a beginner can achieve a good result. 

[allanyed]

PIeter, In addition to the David Antscherl designed kits I would look at Syren's Cheerful for a top quality kit before considering any others.  

Allan

 

 

 

 

[BranPie]

Thank you, Allan. That's a kit I'm also considering. I'm just a little concerned about the import taxes on a Syren kit, but when the time comes I will be looking further into it. 

[Jeff5115]

My first kit was the Vanguard Lady Eleanor.  The quality of the materials and the instructions were excellent. The finished model does have a few minor mistakes but I am happy with the finished result. As my skills improve building more challenging Vanguard models is definitely in the plans for me. This is definitely a hobby where you get what you pay for. Considering the time and effort a good quality kit is well worth the investment.

 

[Gregory]

1 hour ago, BranPie said:

That's a kit I'm also considering.

Just in case you didn't notice, the Cheerful kit only includes the bulkheads, keel parts and framework, including the full set of plans.

It requires a lot of scratch work or additional mini kits for cannon, windless, gratings and such.  It requires additional wood for decking, planking and masting.  

 

It is a great project when you are ready to do a lot of scratch work.

[allanyed]

Pieter

Based on photos in the build logs, Vanguard seems to be very good quality, although I take exception with their gratings and copper sheathing. 

Allan

[druxey]

The dory kit is not 'dumbed down', as other builders will testify!

[James H]

20 hours ago, BranPie said:

 

I couldn't agree more. I'm on my first kit, Polaris from Occre, and whilst it is indeed a good beginner kit in that it's simple, it is also uninspiring and often frustrating to work on.

 

The cheap materials (especially the "walnut" ply which has the tendency to crumble as soon as you touch it and the 0.6mm "walnut" strips which are so hard and brittle that it's nearly impossible to do anything with them) are really no fun at all to work with. The instructions are simplified so much that if you follow them you don't learn to plank properly (and if you try the wood quality drives you insane (this is where I'm struggling now, I almost binned my model last week) and you don't learn to do rigging properly (I've decided I'm not going to try on this model, I just don't have enough knowledge to make something of it).

 

So in the end, at best, you end up with an OK model... I'll be putting much more thought into what my second build wil be. The Vanguard kits are at the top of my list, because they seem to have excellent instructions and are designed so even a beginner can achieve a good result. 

 

We've plenty of Vanguard kit logs here and you'll get some first-hand help too from others including Chris and myself. You can look at the instructions online at their site and some abridged prototype build logs in my MSW signature, below.