Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates

[BobG]

49 minutes ago, chris watton said:

Well, as almost half of my total customer base is from the US, I must do something in the future to show my appreciation!

Oh gosh, that would be amazing and I'm sure you could get more than a few recommendations from the MSW members! 

[GrandpaPhil]

I’m greatly looking forward to the release of the Indy!

 

Your kits (including others that you have designed) are amazing!  I have your Victory Models plan set of the Revenge.  It’s incredible!

 

If I didn’t have 2 two-deckers and the Victory going, I’d have already bought the Sphinx.

 

Once I get those 3 I have in work done, you can count on my buying at least the Sphinx and the Indy!

[uss frolick]

Anyone wishing to prepare for an Indy project might wish to purchase this excellent new biography of her most famous captain,  Sir Edward Pellew,

"Commander"

https://www.amazon.com/Commander-Stephen-Taylor/dp/0571277128/ref=sr_1_1?crid=TI3L8HC1BLJH&keywords=Edward+pellew&qid=1651878285&rnid=2941120011&s=books&sprefix=edward+pellew%2Caps%2C70&sr=1-1

 

 

Or this new study of all the midshipmen on board the Indefatigable at the time of her famous battle against the 74-gun Droits de L' Homme,

"Hornblower's Historical Shipmates: The Young Gentlemen of Pellew's Indefatigable" :

https://www.amazon.com/Hornblowers-Historical-Shipmates-Gentlemen-Indefatigable/dp/1783270993

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AJohnson]

Chris you are never going to please all of the people all of the time. Having experienced just one of your smaller kits  from your “Vanguard” incarnation and have a few built and on the shelf from your Caldercraft years. I know your heart is in producing the best you can for the ‘hobby’ builder.

Some look down on “kit” builders (even on MSW) but they are the overwhelming minority. All I know is even if I do a scratch build a model in the future, it is on the foundations provided by you when I built your great kits over the years. 
So guesstimating your “Indy” might be in the range of £1,500ish.to £2000+ that broken down into the hours of absorbing “hobby” time to build it makes your kits a bargain compared to Golf / Gym membership or a few visits to decent restaurants. I know there are some on MSW who will say that will buy loads of power tools to make something from scratch, that is true but overlooks personal circumstances and space for a workshop, not something we all have.  
Please follow your gut/heart for your future developments, be it inspired by Hornblower or History, we are in your wake! 
Whilst my kids live at home there might not be room at the Inn for an “Indefatigable”, but I might squeeze in a 36 or 38…. Keep us posted. 👍👏

Edited May 7, 2022 by AJohnson

[Nipper]

12 hours ago, chris watton said:

Well, as almost half of my total customer base is from the US, I must do something in the future to show my appreciation!

Chris

BobG's comment about American ships echoed a thought that was in my mind, about looking to the future in terms of what ships VM might be able to sell.  I'm delighted to hear that Sphinx has been so successful - I remember how quickly your first batch of 50 odd disappeared off your shelves!  Setting up business on your own and putting out an "expensive" kit like Sphinx were both a big risk, and your judgement has paid off because of the quality of your work and your deserved reputation.

But how to keep the momentum?  I remember Patrick O'Brian saying in one of his few interviews that his publisher has persuaded him to write for the American market.  As a result, O'Brian placed Jack Aubrey and Stephen Maturin into the war of 1812 and then sold thousands.

Nipper

[chris watton]

9 hours ago, uss frolick said:

Anyone wishing to prepare for an Indy project might wish to purchase this excellent new biography of her most famous captain,  Sir Edward Pellew,

"Commander"

https://www.amazon.com/Commander-Stephen-Taylor/dp/0571277128/ref=sr_1_1?crid=TI3L8HC1BLJH&keywords=Edward+pellew&qid=1651878285&rnid=2941120011&s=books&sprefix=edward+pellew%2Caps%2C70&sr=1-1

 

 

Or this new study of all the midshipmen on board the Indefatigable at the time of her famous battle against the 74-gun Droits de L' Homme,

"Hornblower's Historical Shipmates: The Young Gentlemen of Pellew's Indefatigable" :

https://www.amazon.com/Hornblowers-Historical-Shipmates-Gentlemen-Indefatigable/dp/1783270993

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do have in stock that first book, I have read it twice over, very good book!

9 hours ago, AJohnson said:

Chris you are never going to please all of the people all of the time. Having experienced just one of your smaller kits  from your “Vanguard” incarnation and have a few built and on the shelf from your Caldercraft years. I know your heart is in producing the best you can for the ‘hobby’ builder.

Some look down on “kit” builders (even on MSW) but they are the overwhelming minority. All I know is even if I do a scratch build a model in the future, it is on the foundations provided by you when I built your great kits over the years. 
So guesstimating your “Indy” might be in the range of £1,500ish.to £2000+ that broken down into the hours of absorbing “hobby” time to build it makes your kits a bargain compared to Golf / Gym membership or a few visits to decent restaurants. I know there are some on MSW who will say that will buy loads of power tools to make something from scratch, that is true but overlooks personal circumstances and space for a workshop, not something we all have.  
Please follow your gut/heart for your future developments, be it inspired by Hornblower or History, we are in your wake! 
Whilst my kids live at home there might not be room at the Inn for an “Indefatigable”, but I might squeeze in 36 or 38…. Keep us posted. 👍👏

Thank you!

 

I was hoping to keep the kit well under £1000 - but as I progress, I know I cannot, as the material count keeps rising (I think this will have more laser cut materials and parts than anything else for a full commercial kit), so it will be around the £1000+ area , but NOT £1500-2000 - that would be Master Shipwright Indy territory (if I ever do any). I know I see a lot of comments saying how my kits are expensive compared to other brands, but they are honestly not, not when the materials and amount of time put into each kit are taken into account. 

 

I try to keep the end price as low as I can by still not really factoring my time in producing the kits - I am sure if I sub contracted the laser work out the Indy kit would be nearer £5k, and Sphinx around £2.2k. I do this mainly to make a living, but also for the love of it, wanting to produce better kits most can build and be proud of when finished, not frustrated and give up half way through - if it was 100% the former, then it would be easy to pump out 6-8 lesser kits per year, but as I have said many times before, that would be no fun and ultimately boring/unsatisfying. If Sphinx did not sell well, I would have had to rethink the way I design and simplify things, but as it did sell, and it is clearly what my customers want and like, I shall carry on doing what I am doing - low volume, high quality.

 

Almost all materials and services used to produce these kits now come exclusively from the UK and EU, I do not have the luxury of China prices.  For Indy, all photo etched work will be done here in the UK. This is more expensive for me (as prices accross the board have risen sharply over the past year), oddly enough, but I will get my orders on time, and the quality is slightly higher. I am sure the plans and manual for this will be almost half the overall kit weight, too. I do not mind so much, as the plans and manual (that are easily understandable) are just as crucially important as the rest of the kit contents. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by chris watton

[Oldsalt1950]

In the scheme of things 1000pounds for a kit or $1238 U.S is not really out of line for the quality of your kits. As time goes on for those in our hobby and skills progress, builds get more complex and detailed. Some of us cannot scratch build so a kit is our only choice. I for one am in that boat being as I live in an apartment complex. I also know that if I get a kit from one of the major manufacturers i will be replacing various parts of the kit which adds to the cost of the build. Rope and wood alone can run into the hundreds of dollars on some kits, then there is replacing the castings that are sub-par, one can figure a few hundred for cannons alone on a large ship. By the time one is done it would be wiser and more economical to purchase one of your kits or one of Chuck Passaro's offerings and get everything from a source know for high quality and attention to detail. It also comes with the added benefit of being able to query you if we run into problems on the build. 

As to your possibly offering a U.S. ship that would just be icing on the cake for those of us in the states.

[paul carruthers]

If you divide cost by build time it’s not a huge amount of money, compare to golf club membership etc.

[Glenn-UK]

For a kit that may take 2+ years to build a £1000+ price tag is very good value for the Indy. I will be tempted to build one of the smaller fishing boats in tandem and maybe one such as Saucy Jack after my Sphinx is complete and before Indy is released.😃

[Vane]

Have the people claiming your kits are more expensive actually looked in the boxes? If you simply compare the size of the ships they have a very small point, but thats a ridicurlous comparision. A Ferrari is smaller than a Volvo so of course it should be cheaper then, right... ? 

 

The problem with most kit manufacturers is that their product development has completely stopped decades ago. Its all in walnut and you need to carve out all details yourself.... 

This photo kind of summarizes what you actually have to compare when it comes to price.... 

[James H]

I know cost is relative, but if we take a look at something very pertinent, then we get a better idea:

 

Caldercraft 1:64 HMS Agamemnon. A kit that uses the legacy POB methods, with dummy barrels for the lower gun deck, nothing in the way of laser-cut/engraved parts. Many generic fittings and also the gun port positions are determined with a paper template, with the exception of quarterdeck ports that are cut into the inner bulwarks. Finishing and detail timber is generally walnut with Tanganyika for decks. Aggy also doesn't have a lower gun deck at all. The main gun deck is complete, but stops fore of a ply bulkhead so doesn't extend to stern cabin areas as they don't exist in kit. In all, Agamemnon is an amazing kit, and we've seen some fantastic builds of her. 

What does she currently retail for? £935 direct from Caldercraft. This is a kit that's now 22-23 years old.

 

Vanguard Models 1:64 HMS Indefatigable.

• A kit that uses new design techniques with gun ports built into the hull framing. 
• Stern cabin with internal engraved details (chequered floor, panelling etc), accessible quarter galleries with seats of ease. Stern cabin windows can be posed open or closed. 
• Complete main gun deck with option to plug the gun carts into position so they don't come adrift accidentally.
• No generic parts. All guns on kit are designed to be the exact ones, printed in matt black resin, complete with George III emblems.
• Other 3D print parts include a proper scale belfry, Brodie Stove (in 4 parts), anchors, carronades/wheels, and also some rudder parts.
• 10 thicknesses of laser cut sheets.
• Planking will be in pear, and not walnut. There really is a price premium for going with the much better pear. Less brittle, less fibrous, finer grain and more realistic in colour. Deck planks will be either Red Alder or maple, depending on supply situation at time.
• To assist with painting, main gun barrels will be positioned after hull painting, and carronades are designed to retract into the hull until the externals are painted, then they can be pulled out into position!
• Detailed bulkhead screens for cabin.
• Deck beam positions are also to scale and in scale position, and do not relate to the MDF bulkhead positions.
• As with other VM designs, a rabbet is built into the keel, allowing easier plank positioning. 
• Multi-layer channels to simulate the edging of the real thing.
• Engraved ply sub decks to assist with planking.
• Five mini kits for each of the ship's boats.
• Laser cut acrylic window panes.
• Laser cut and engraved acrylic stand with two-colour nameplate.
• Large and heavy full colour assembly manual detailing every aspect of construction and providing tips.

Of course, Aggy is a 64-gun, but is around the same size, more or less to the razée Indefatigable. Indy just loses the razed areas, but it actually longer than Aggy due to the flying jibboom. 

 

Price? Tentatively around £1000. 

A whole 23yrs after Caldercraft's kit was released.

[Blue Ensign]

I think that just about sums it up James,👍

 

B.E.

[AJohnson]

5 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

I think that just about sums it up James,👍

 

B.E.

Agreed, even if ‘Indy’ does edge a few hundred north of this due to material costs, then there is no comparison. 

[chris watton]

9 minutes ago, AJohnson said:

Agreed, even if ‘Indy’ does edge a few hundred north of this due to material costs, then there is no comparison. 

There will be well over twice the amount of pre cut parts and laser sheets compared to something like the Aggy, perhaps three times the way I'm going....

 

For the 1mm laser cut pear sheets alone (500 and 600mm long), there are already 15 full sheets per kit, and I haven't started on mast fittings or bow assembly yet. There are two full size 2mm pear sheets for the cannon and carronade carriages.

[ccoyle]

18 hours ago, chris watton said:

Well, as almost half of my total customer base is from the US, I must do something in the future to show my appreciation!

 

Shannon. Chesapeake. 'Nuff said.

 

Then add one of the US Ex Ex ships, e.g. Vincennes, Peacock, Porpoise, etc.

[Moonbug]

    As a note of perspective - I’m probably upward of $1,000 all-in on the Peg by upgrading timber and parts that it sounds like are being included with the Indy.
    My guess is that most of the “serious” builders end up spending this much regardless - so one might even consider it to ultimately be a cost savings.

[hollowneck]

2 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

I think that just about sums it up James,👍

Yep.

 

7 hours ago, paul carruthers said:

compare to golf club membership etc

...or a "Wine Club" subscription🥴

The Indy will not be inexpensive, but as we all know, Chris' new kits will give you an excellent return on your investment.

[James H]

Don't forget, PayPal also lets you spread purchases too. Depending on region, stuff can be spread between 3 and 5 months too. 

 

Indy will be very reasonable in cost, especially over the time it will take to do this kit justice. 

[niwotwill]

All the comments are right on spot. I've built two of Chris's fishing boats and can testify to the quality of the kits along with the finished product. Enclosed picture of completed fishing boat Eyrcina making a wonderful display.

 

 

 

Regard Will

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mnl]

The numbers being bandied about are basically the price of one Star jib. It has a competitive life of a week or two of sailing, less if it blows enough to be fun.

[chris watton]

I have just (well, my wife..) packed up the laser cut parts for Indy and the planking for Jim, which he will receive on Wednesday to start the model of Indefatigable.

 

All that is in the box is 95% of the laser cut parts (no mast parts done yet), first, second and deck planking strips and 3-d printed parts. No photo etched parts, plans, manual or dowel in the box.

 

Weight - 12kg! The majority of this weight is just the laser cut sheets.

 

Also, I underestimated the box size (900x320x140mm), needs to be slightly wider and much deeper!

 

I think the final weight of the kit will be around 16kg, Sphinx is 7kg.

[Glenn-UK]

I will watch Jim's build with great interest.

[Oldsalt1950]

I will be following the proto-type build with much interest. 16kg is a lot of parts

[Nirvana]

Okay, so we have 12kg of laser cut sheets.

I am curious how much will be "waste".

Is 20% a reasonable guess?

[chris watton]

1 hour ago, Nirvana said:

Okay, so we have 12kg of laser cut sheets.

I am curious how much will be "waste".

Is 20% a reasonable guess?

Due to the cost of most of the materials, as little waste as possible. 

 

There will be no more or less waste than any other kit, with all materials utilised to their full potential. 

 

ETA - Is it even considered 'waste' if it's keeping the parts in place, nice and safe until needed, or would it be better if I laser cut every part without retention tabs and then swept the contents of the laser bed into plastic bags and put in the kit box, all jumbled up?

 

ETA 2 - The box containing the laser cut parts and planking is 12kg. The 16kg is a guess at the final weight, so it may be more, as manual and plans may be between 3-4kg, with PE and the rest of the contents (dowel, more laser cut parts etc.) adding at least another 1kg 

Edited May 16, 2022 by chris watton

[AJohnson]

55 minutes ago, chris watton said:

ETA - Is it even considered 'waste' if it's keeping the parts in place, nice and safe until needed, or would it be better if I laser cut every part without retention tabs and then swept the contents of the laser bed into plastic bags and put in the kit box, all jumbled up?

Another thing to consider is this “waste” often ends up useful for making bits and pieces for scratch built items and details. I keep all my laser cut sheets in a box, you never know when they might come in! 😉

[Nirvana]

Still an impressive size and weight.
Oh my, would I like to have that ship on the shelf.

[Malcolm Greig]

Wow, this will be a very impressive model. I wonder what the time frame Jim and Chris anticipate to production. The pace of development at this stage is as impressive as the subject. 

 

Well done, very much looking forward to Jim's build. 

 

regards

 

Malcolm

[Dave_E]

Will Jim have a build log? 

[glbarlow]

He always does for these builds, it morphs into the instruction manual later