Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates Volume 2

[chris watton]

OK, have asked my sculptor to do something with those hands, and beef up the collars and lapels, as well as chair legs, to help with printing.

 

Just finished first print, only half of the items printed (new printer, so trying again), but I did get a seated and standing figure and table in 48th and 32nd, and the sitting officer and table in 64th.

[chris watton]

 

This is what I got from the first run using a new 3-d printer. Am sure my standard printers are better, or I need to look at settings..

 

Bases never came out, and a few other bits, so this is what I was left with. Carver is changing the figures for smaller hands and a few other little things

Edited June 21 by chris watton

[Martes]

Maybe I am a bit late here, but the coat definitely appears very ill-fitted from behind:

 

The material appears too thin, following all the body shapes inside (which it shouldn't, broadcloth tends to keep it's own form), and there is no trace of tailoring. The thing is that the back of the coat is composed of several parts with quite rigid seams that ensure that the depicted problem does not happen.

 

 

References:

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-71256

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-71336

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-71607

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-71431

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thibaultron]

Can you show us a graphic of the supported model, the one with the supports that you sent to the printer (like the example for a cannon below)? We may be able to help you with how they are placed.

 

[druxey]

I agree with Martes; the coat is fitted using a drop shoulder seam to the back of the shoulder and separate pieces along a curved seam from the rear shoulder down:

 

It give a very elegant line. You can just see the curved seams in the uniform coat photo. Darts in clothes were used once wider bolts of machine-made material became available.

[Martes]

And the tails being separated also adds to both rigidness of the structure and elegance of the silhouette.

Note that this horizontal seam is usually almost invisible because it's mostly concealed by pocket flaps.

Edited June 21 by Martes

[James H]

Maybe we need to check the denier of their tights too.

[Martes]

2 minutes ago, James H said:

Maybe we need to check the denier of their tights too.

That's "flap" and "breeches" in this case.

 

And their shoes are somewhat too modern.

The coats are double-breasted with epaulettes, that puts the timeframe around after 1805, so most likely they should wear half-boots with long trousers, but if we suppose very high-end dress ensemble, the shoes looked differently then and had higher heels and much more prominent buckles.

 

The question is how real you want to make it.

Edited June 21 by Martes

[chris watton]

For this kind of work, I have to rely on others who are conversant in such disciplines, as digital sculpting is akin to alchemy for me.

I this case, I have now decided to take the loss and scrap this project, files have been deleted. 
 

[Craigie65]

Chris,

Please reconsider. Look at 1/64 in a cabin the number of buttons and invisible seams matter not a jot.  There is nothing else out there and you have been brave enough financially to meet the demand that has come from this forum.  

[thibaultron]

Guys, these were going to be 1/32 to 1/64th scale figures! Many of the things you pointed out would be hard to see on a 1/6th scale figure!

[HardeeHarHar]

I’ll jump into the fray.  All the commentary about fit, etc are all good.  However, the images people are critiquing are huge compared to the size of the figures.  With my eyes, I can hardly see the figure, let alone a big hand or Ill-fitted coat.  That’s not to say the comments aren’t valid, but holy cow I am starting to understand why Chris is saying he is going to punt.

[Martes]

5 hours ago, HardeeHarHar said:

 However, the images people are critiquing are huge compared to the size of the figures.

There are a lot of figures of comparable sizes that take all the details and forms into account. Type "Napoleonic officer 1:64" into google images. There are correctly styled naval figures, and you won't believe what people do with hussar uniforms

 

Even Hornblower figurine made by the same author is all right. But Hornblower stands straight, and this pose is more complex. The problem here is not seams or buttons (although if the sculptor did know about them, it would really help), but loss of overall shape. I am guessing that the author tried to emulate the cloth when changing the pose of the character the cloth behaved incorrectly due to error in rigidity parameters. From technical standpoint it is a bug, and it is (probably) not very difficult to fix.

Edited June 22 by Martes

[Guyuti]

Chris,

I feel really sorry for you, things like this must make your life hell. You have always tried to make sure everything you sell is the top of the range or the most innovative as possible to make the lives of the modelling community easier. These figures were beautiful compared to what is out there on the market. At 1/32nd scale an average hand is around 6-7mm long from wrist to end of the longest finger a mm either way would not make a lot of difference. When you talk about buckles on shoes at that scale they are tiny. And at 1/64th they are even smaller and less defined. It is such a shame that you have ended up losing money and time.

Regards

Guy

[Kevin]

If i was @chris watton i would be real miffed at the decision he had to make, yet again the same few have nothing positive to say, and now you all go with nothing

Edited June 22 by Kevin

[Martes]

@Kevin, it's the sculptor's hide we are after, not Chris. And that he has taken the money without doing a minimally plausible work by his own - let alone market - standards makes it only worse. I really doubt such "professionals" should be encouraged.

Edited June 22 by Martes

[Old Collingwood]

On 6/20/2024 at 7:07 PM, hollowneck said:

Lovely 3D sculpts for Admiralty-style reveal builds, Chris. I'm assuming these can be had at 1:64. If so, there is some very delicate painting required as well as a removal of the base plinth.

Yes  but  very  achievable,  I work with  1:56  scale   and  they are  quite  easy  to paint.

 

OC.

[Blue Ensign]

 I would urge Chris to reconsider  his decision and  proceed with this project, it has the makings of being a unique and interesting addition to his range.

 

I was looking forward to making a dio around the figures as I did with the cook figure at 1:48 scale, in addition to having a sitting figure to have in the Great cabin of my 1:64 scale build.

 

There are going to be a lot of disappointed people, and I'm one of them.😞

 

B.E.

[chris watton]

Cheers guys.

 

My problem is that the carver I have used from the start seems to have vanished, I can only think that they may have passed away. He was responsible for all natural and carved decoration, both figures and stern/figurehead 3-d prints. I prefer to stick to just one person or company for each discipline used, that way they know exactly what I want and know what they can do.

 

Problems arise when you have to find a replacement for the previous person or company. To try a new sculptor out, I thought the best thing to do was to give them a figure or two to work on. This is the main reference I suplied, along with another two references for the period clothes, from head to foot. I thought at the time that this would be a very nice addition to my figures range:

 

 

Now, if something is not right, I will not waste my time producing them (the 3-d prints do take a lot of time) and selling something I am not 100% happy with - even though at my main scale, these details will be barely seen, more so when in their cabin with deck beams obscuring a lot of the view. This was to be a 5-part set and would take a lot of time to produce and post process, so if there are doubts about this set, I have no problem abandoning it and turning my attention to kit design, the one thing I do know well and have complete control over.

 

I will give this carver one more chance to get the problems highlighted sorted - so the fat lady hasn't broken into song quite yet.

[DocRob]

42 minutes ago, chris watton said:

I will give this carver one more chance to get the problems highlighted sorted - so the fat lady hasn't broken into song quite yet.

There is hope finally. I liked the setting a lot, Chris and would have liked to add it into my Sphinx´s cabin.

BTW: you mentioned a fat lady, I wouldn´t be in the least offended if there was a Duchess of Kingston, who mustn´t be fat at all in 1/64 .

Cheers Rob

[glbarlow]

16 hours ago, chris watton said:

 

I this case, I have now decided to take the loss and scrap this project, files have been deleted

I first thought these comments were in jest, such detailed critiques of a small plastic toy. I completely understand and support your decision to scrap it. It’s not your core business, why bother. 
 

btw: the guy in that painting seems to have really big hands 🤣

Edited June 22 by glbarlow

[Blue Ensign]

Old news Glenn, the project is back on for one last throw of the dice. 👍

 

I rather think your description  of the figure set as small plastic toy a little unkind and dismissive of the hard work that no doubt goes into creating such items.

 

B.E.

 

[Martes]

48 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

I rather think your description  of the figure set as small plastic toy

I think many quite underestimate the state of the market of miniature figures. And those things do set certain expectations.
(wargaming enthusiasts can discern specific regiments by eye at this scale and manufacturers know this)
This means there is a certain industry standard.

 

Just a couple of examples from image search - in 1/58 (28mm) scale:

 

 

 

Edited June 22 by Martes

[glbarlow]

4 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

your description  of the figure set as small plastic toy a little unkind and dismissive

Sorry you think that. My comment is to the unreasonable expectation for ‘accuracy’ being demanded of Chris for small plastic figures.  Being it reminded of the little army men I played with as a kid I’m not why toy isn’t a fair description. More significantly nor can I imagine examining such figures to determine if it had the right shoes, especially once placed on a model. 
 

Chris is valuable to our community for his ship designs, not for the outsourced work of a plastic figure that clearly creates such critique. It’s true I have no use for plastic figures (other than my mini-me for fun and scale comparison) so I’ll keep further comments to myself.  
 

Frankly I’m surprised Chris is giving it another try, best of luck to him on his next iteration. 

Edited June 22 by glbarlow

[hollowneck]

11 hours ago, Blue Ensign said:

I would urge Chris to reconsider  his decision and  proceed with this project, it has the makings of being a unique and interesting addition to his range.

Chris, please consider this post as my order for one full set of this excellent and interesting 5-piece tableau in 1:64. Please also PM me with the cost, no questions asked. My advice: ignore the "fly specks amongst the pepper" silly-bugger posts here and proceed as you've indicated.

Edited June 22 by hollowneck
spelling correction

[HardeeHarHar]

I’ll also request one full set for my Sphinx if you would be so kind Chris!  

[AJohnson]

On 6/23/2024 at 2:52 AM, HardeeHarHar said:

I’ll also request one full set for my Sphinx if you would be so kind Chris!  

Just catching up on loads of threads, but I too would like to say I would love a set like this (or the eventual iteration of it) - hope you can resurrect a version of it at some point Chris. 😁

[KBo]

On 6/21/2024 at 3:43 PM, glbarlow said:

They aren’t real people or sculptures, just toys to put on a model.  Besides I think I read somewhere that naval officers of this time period had big hands and small heads 😊

I can remember as a small boy shaking the hands of my Great Grandfather who was a farm labourer for nearly 60 years. It was like shaking a tough leather glove. I would imagine anyone in the naval service for any length of time would have very similar hands. 

[Isaiah]

On 6/22/2024 at 7:54 AM, chris watton said:

For this kind of work, I have to rely on others who are conversant in such disciplines, as digital sculpting is akin to alchemy for me.

I this case, I have now decided to take the loss and scrap this project, files have been deleted. 
 

I agree Chris, I feel sorry for you putting yourself through this especially trying to please the people who critique things that you need a microscope for.

[knightyo]

Those figures are fantastic!  I can tell that it's been irritating to have them critiqued so much, but having modelers critique the figures to that degree is exactly what you want and need.  Very few people have the opportunity to have their products critiqued to that degree before they put them on the market.  The critique is what will help to ensure that the figures are top-notch and maximize the number sold. 

 

I've already purchased a number of your other figures and don't even intend to put them into a model.  I purchased them solely because they are fun look at.  I'm sure I'll purchase this most recent set as well.

 

Alan