Chris Watton and Vanguard Models news and updates

[chris watton]

I just thought I would explain a little more about the ships name letters on the sterns. When I first started designing, I bought a lot of books (which I still have, some are over 30 years old) and soaked up each and every one until many of the details I now know off by heart were etched into my mind. It was so long ago, when I am questioned about certain details, I start to doubt myself. With that in mind, I then refer back to the sources I have always used.

 

In one of my most treasured books, Old Ships Figure-Heads and Sterns, by L.G. Carr laughton (1991 edition, number 80 of 750 copies published), and this is always my go to source for painting, he writes:

 

' English Ships had not had their names painted on their sterns, or elsewhere, till 1771, when by an order of 28th June they were directed to be painted on the second counter in 12" letters in a compartment. A year later, on 9th September, 1772, it was ordered that, instead of the above method, they should be painted "as large as the second counter will admit, without any compartment around them."

The idea that this painting of the names was abandoned in 1778 at Keppel's request is mistaken; for though the names were rubbed out of the sterns of the ships under Keppel's command in that year, they were left in all other ships, both then and afterwards. The large lettering was the Trafalgar fashion, but how long it survived after that date is not known. Some models, e.g., the Nelson of 1814 at Greenwich, show the name small in a compartment, and apparently soon after the peace the painting of the names was dropped'

 

This is why Indefatigable has the option of her name on the second counter.

 

On another note, my Ranger boxes have just arrived, and the plans and manual came on Monday!

[Vane]

Seeing the sometimes intense discussion on things like this,  I think some people overthink it. A kit is just a kit and you have to decide what quality and correctness you can put in it to get happy customers and also make profits. Woodenship are perfect for scratchbuidling and if you want to add or remove parts its quite simple to do that. As long as you are happy with your own build its noones business if you decide to paint it in pink.

  

[James H]

25 minutes ago, Vane said:

Seeing the sometimes intense discussion on things like this,  I think some people overthink it. A kit is just a kit and you have to decide what quality and correctness you can put in it to get happy customers and also make profits. Woodenship are perfect for scratchbuidling and if you want to add or remove parts its quite simple to do that. As long as you are happy with your own build its noones business if you decide to paint it in pink.

  

 

Maybe apart from the 'pink' bit (😆), you are absolutely right. In fact, including the pink!

 

As long as the materials are there to build the model as intended, then any small extra effort is up to the modeller in how they depict a vessel.

[bruce d]

Chris,

I can’t offer a definitive answer to what orders were given, and when, but there are a few anecdotes in the ADM (Admiralty) records in The National Archives UK to keep the subject lively:

 

7 February, 1772 - Commissioner Frederick Rogers, Plymouth advises their Lordships at the Admiralty that they should ‘… inform what price is allowed the contractor for painting the names and ornamenting the compartments in ships' sterns.’ ADM 106/1216/96

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11 February, 1772 – The Plymouth Officers advise their Lords at the Admiralty that ‘the contractor for painter's work here has not been paid for painting the ships names and compartments in their sterns and opine he deserves 6s. (6 shillings) for each ship’ ADM 106/1215/31

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26 October, 1772 - The Plymouth Officers ordered Thomas Winsloe of Tiverton to write the names of several ships on the stern. They requested from the Admiralty for him to be paid at the rate of 6 shillings for each ship, the price they thought it is worth. ADM 106/1217/208

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21 July 1773 -  Portsmouth Officers report that they have asked ‘… Phillip Avery, the Painter ... the reason the name of the Albion was not written on her stern, when she was last painted at Spithead. They inform us that on their application to the Captain (rear-admiral Hon. Samuel Barrington) for doing it, he told them it was unnecessary as the name was carved and supported by the claws of the Lyon in her Head.’  ADM 106/1220/266

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And then 18 April 1778, Commissioner Proby of Chatham acknowledges ‘Receipt of warrants to rub the names out of the sterns of the Victory and Formidable, …’
ADM 106/1244/116

 

So here we have at least one captain saying ‘No, not on my ship’.

HTH,

Bruce

[georgeband]

Did someone mention pink? The various craft built in Bermuda used the local wood, called a cedar or juniper, which happens to be pink. The wood would weather in service and become a conventional grey-brown except for the deck which was holystoned and hence retained its pink colour. The photo below is of Whiting (Fish or Ballahoo class) and I have placed some lengths of Eastern Red Cedar next to her to show what the natural wood looks like. (Bermudan cedar is nearly extinct now and Eastern Red Cedar from the USA is a close relative.) The case will have a pink base to emphasize the colour. 

I am still undecided about putting her name on the stern. 

 

George

 

[bruce d]

5 minutes ago, georgeband said:

(Bermudan cedar is nearly extinct now and Eastern Red Cedar from the USA is a close relative.)

Caution! Thread drift strikes again! 

George, you have rattled my cage. Ouch.

I have a piece of old Bermudian cedar which is not pink at all: now I wonder if it really is 'old Bermudian Cedar'. Can you just confirm that you are saying the deck of the model in your picture is old Bermudian Cedar, i.e. pre-1950 cutting, not a more recent harvest?

BTW, that model looks nice.

[georgeband]

Bruce,

The decking is made from 'Tanganyika' that was supplied with the Caldercraft kit and which I stained pink with a water based dye. I matched the colour to the Eastern Red Cedar which is fresh and still has a lovely smell to it. Could your sample have faded naturally? You have put a worm of doubt in my mind and I hope that I am right about the colour because I do not want to try to change the deck planking. 

 

In an effort to get back on topic, I have one of Chris's wonderfully detailed resin boats that will sit on the deck over the main hatch. The hull of the 12 foot cutter does not have thole pins or cut-outs in the top strake for oars. I can work out where the thwarts and oars should go but am unsure whether to cut slots in the top strake or build up another strake above it. Any suggestions?

 

George

 

[bruce d]

George, I will PM you with more info and give Chris his thread back 😇.

 

[chris watton]

I have just received the first 30 sets of flags. This set has a white ensign, the next set will have a red ensign.

 

Ensign size (1707 - 1800) - 70 x 120mm

 

Union Jack (1707 - 1800) - 50 x 78mm

 

Tricolour pennant (1661 - 1850) - 18 x 255mm

[chris watton]

Just thought I'd post to say that Ranger kits are now complete and in stock, so all orders will be sent next week.

 

Also, I have a quite a few emails recommending books. I think over the years, I have bought any book I feel relevant to hobby, and later job. The first books on this subject I bought were in the late '80's, early '90's, Frank Fox's The Battlefleet of King Charles II and Lavery's Ship of the Line. (And the Sailing Navy List being the most perused by far..)  The older books have been moved around 8 times over the years, so some look a little worse for wear, both from travel and me reading them. The latest are from Ancre and Seawatch. Only one book doesn't fit, and that the mammoth Commerce De Marseille monograph! James Lees Masting and Rigging is missing from the pics, as I am using it right now.

[Blue Ensign]

Nice collection Chris, remarkable similarity to my own library,  even down to the old Model shipwright editions. 

 

Even now I can’t resist adding to the pile and your fishing boat kits have created a whole new category😊

 

B.E

Edited September 18, 2022 by Blue Ensign

[chris watton]

9 minutes ago, Blue Ensign said:

Nice collection Chris, remarkable similarity to my own library,  even down to the old Model shipwright editions. 

 

Even now I can’t resist adding to the pile and you’re fishing boat kits have created a whole new category😊

 

B.E

My collection has grown even more the past year or so, after discovering Ancre and Seawatch (plus a couple of stunning new books by Richard Endsor relating to Restoration warships). I have had to have a large cull of many of my paperbacks, all read many times over and bought only for reading when on lunch breaks when I had a day job, to free up space for new books.

[chris watton]

My wife managed to make up the first batch of Ranger kits today...

[Guyuti]

Beautifully put together as usual.

 

Guy

[glbarlow]

On 9/18/2022 at 9:42 AM, chris watton said:

quite a few emails recommending books

And here we thought you just made this stuff up as you went along 😂🤣😂 
 

I am quite confident both yours and Chuck’s designs are throughly researched and fully historically accurate.  It cracks me up when some question some minute detail. 
 

It is of course worth noting, again, your business model to create models everyone can build requires some compromise, @glennard2523 is a good example of out of the box building. None of the compromises can’t be undone by skilled modelers, look no further than @Blue Ensign or @DelF  with their approach to Vanguard models. 
 

You’re doing great Chris, thanks for upping the quality of ship model design. 

[chris watton]

Kit designing has to be a compromise, otherwise two things will happen. The first is costs. If I designed a kit exactly how they were built as per Navy Board models, the development costs, materials and time required would be phenomenal. Anyone willing to take on such a project would no doubt have the requisite skills to scratch build their own at a fraction of the cost.

 

This leads on to the second problem, the number of pre-cut parts that would need final shaping on every surface would also be a lot. For my part, I prefer to reduce pre shaping as much as I can. Such a kit would alienate perhaps 95% of people who buy and build kits. Makes little sense - taking years to develop a kit (which I could develop 6 or 7 marketable kits in that same time frame) that would be prohibitively expensive to the vast majority. 

 

Indy is about as far as I would like to go for now, with full upper deck beams, and (optional) knees. I say optional because depending on experience, they can be added or left off, and this will make no difference to the overall look of the finished model, as they are mostly hidden anyway.

 

I have also included two options for bowsprit: one with no flying jibboom (reducing the overall length when built), and one with the flying jibboom, with 2 dolphin strikers to suit each option

[hollowneck]

On 9/18/2022 at 1:30 PM, Blue Ensign said:

Nice collection Chris, remarkable similarity to my own library,  even down to the old Model shipwright editions. 

Here is an "Alpha" and "Omega" for Model Shipwright; Vol 1, #1 (1972) and the last edition in 2013.

[Blue Ensign]

In the days before the internet and MSW, each edition eagerly anticipated.🙂

 

B.E.

[Chuck]

Chris’ wonderful figures being prepared for painting by a good friend of mine and master miniature painter Larry Friedlander.   I am so excited about this.  Thank you Chris for the best scale figures I have ever seen.  It is so good not have a mini that looks like a cartoon.  These are so realistic. 

 

bases are removed so they can be used on a model or diorama.  
 

then primed and ready for paint.

 

This guys work is amazing and you will love it.  I will try and keep you guys posted.  One of Larry’s figures below to show you the kind of work he does.

 

[Jim Rogers]

Chuck how did you remove the base.

[glbarlow]

That photo looks frighteningly real😳

[Jack12477]

Chuck, what type paint is he using ? Oil or Acrylic?  That's a fabulous paint job.

Edited September 23, 2022 by Jack12477

[mtaylor]

That completed figure is a model unto itself.  So will the ones he doing for you Chuck.

[scrubbyj427]

Chris, I’m curious to know who you are having produce your figures and sculptures? Or did you take the time to learn zbrush and pull all your hair out doing so?

[hollowneck]

4 hours ago, Chuck said:

Thank you Chris for the best scale figures I have ever seen.  It is so good not have a mini that looks like a cartoon.  These are so realistic. 

 

I'm excited to see Larry's work on Chris' new Royal Navy figures. I've ordered a couple of the sailors and a cannon crew from Vanguard and plan to add them to my latest model/diorama.

This April, I went to a local Exhibit/Conference in PA that's sponsored by the MFCA (Miniature Figure Collectors of America - link: https://www.mfcaclub.com/). Who knew this existed! This is also a large collectible international hobby.

 

I was impressed with the extraordinary quality of the figures with a wide variety of subjects and scales: all superbly sculpted, painted and displayed. Serious collectors pay MUCHO $ for some of these. Many of the artists with whom I spoke were from Europe. One creator (from Spain) told me he works on commission only and can take up to a year to craft a single figure.

 

Here are a couple photos (of many!) of this artistry.

 

 

 

When I inquired about this Warrior Geisha, the artist told me I could have it on a "Show Special" price for $4,000. After a few conversations, I stopped asking artists how much they were asking for their creations...

I recall the scale here was 1:35. Many plastic military modelers work in this "standard scale."

The presentation stands are equally impressive IMHO. Exotic, burled and polished hardwoods mostly.

In addition to creating custom "sculpts" for collector clients, some artists license their figures for resellers who make the unpainted figures available for mere modeling mortals...

 

 

Edited September 23, 2022 by hollowneck
Added Photo/text

[Chuck]

Larry uses a disc sander to gently remove the bases.  Once they get down to the feet the bases just fall off.  I am trying to get Larry to do a build log or even an article for the nrjournal on this batch.  Either way I will post updates to his progress.  
 

 

[chris watton]

10 hours ago, scrubbyj427 said:

Chris, I’m curious to know who you are having produce your figures and sculptures? Or did you take the time to learn zbrush and pull all your hair out doing so?

I commission a professional digital sculptor who specialises in this sort of thing. I furnish him with all relevant pictures of the subject for features and clothing/uniform, and he does the rest. He does all of my digital carving, including the figureheads and stern decoration. Not the cheapest, but you get what you pay for.

 

I may commission a figure in the future of a younger Nelson, and possibly Collingwood, Duncan, Hawke, Anson and Hoste, the latter having a stunning victory against the odds at the Battle of Lissa in 1811.

 

And Chuck, Brillant pics, thank you so much for sharing, what an artist your friend is!

Edited September 23, 2022 by chris watton

[glbarlow]

Other than mini me I don’t care much for figures on models, but between Chris’ models and Chuck’s friend’s paintwork I must say I’m very impressed with the detail and quality work. They do a great job of depicting the scale of our 1:64 and 1:48 models and are nice to have for that reason alone. 

Edited September 23, 2022 by glbarlow

[chris watton]

I just had these arrive for new stock today:

 

Pin Vice and 10pc Drill Set – VANGUARD MODELS

 

I have had my pin vice for over 30 years and have used it for every single model I have built when a powered drill isn't needed.

 

In other news, I finished the Indy masts and yards plans today, just the rigging plans left to do. Plan sheets will be B2 size (980x680mm), and I think around 26 in total.

 

 

[Guyuti]

Chris,

 

Received the "Ranger" Sail set and fishermen today.

All I can say is that it is a beatifully designed and packaged kit. You and your wife make a great team and are in my humble opinion the best Designers and manufacturers in Europe.

I am so looking forward to your next vessels release.

Regards and Thanks

 

Guy